[Johnny Brown]

I don't recall much discussion of why coal miners didn't leave South Yorkshire for a better life elsewhere; given the standards of the times I can't see conditions were that different, plus they didn't have language issues to contend with. I imagine there was a lot of pride in doing 'man's work' exporting a 'world-beating local product'. Calum Muskett told me (in a different debate) that Wales had clearances like Scotland but I've found no evidence online.

While the culture of the Caban suggests a refreshingly un-macho atmosphere, I've been surprised at the reluctance to adopt basic safety measures on many sites I've visited over the last 20 years. Most concerning was an exhibition centre in London where a guy had fallen 50m to a messy death on a concrete floor but his workmates were not keen to wear harnesses as they 'weren't shit like him'.

[andy popp]

I'm slightly regretting the rather flippant title I gave this thread. Can a mod change it to something like "Welsh Slate Landscape Given Unesco World Heritage status." Thanks.

It's been an interesting thread though.

[Will Hunt]

I'm slightly regretting the rather flippant title I gave this thread.

I think almost all of us got it. And actually the "flippant" title captures the irony or duality of the situation very well to those who know anything about it.

[Will Hunt]

I actually used to live in a UNESCO world heritage site, designated for its industrial heritage.
2 up, 2 down, perishingly cold, damp on the walls, but by God the flat whites in the local cafes could knock you dead.

And that's in a place which is famous for the cosy conditions offered to the workers.

[SA Chris]

I was thinking of old Titus Salt earlier in the thread, wasn't he one of the first industrialists who saw treating his workers better as being beneficial to productivity?

[Oldmanmatt]

I don't recall much discussion of why coal miners didn't leave South Yorkshire for a better life elsewhere; given the standards of the times I can't see conditions were that different, plus they didn't have language issues to contend with. I imagine there was a lot of pride in doing 'man's work' exporting a 'world-beating local product'. Calum Muskett told me (in a different debate) that Wales had clearances like Scotland but I've found no evidence online.

While the culture of the Caban suggests a refreshingly un-macho atmosphere, I've been surprised at the reluctance to adopt basic safety measures on many sites I've visited over the last 20 years. Most concerning was an exhibition centre in London where a guy had fallen 50m to a messy death on a concrete floor but his workmates were not keen to wear harnesses as they 'weren't shit like him'.

I’m pretty sure there’s been quite a few books, plays and movies/TV programs on or around this topic, across a range of similar/connected industries, not least “Billy Eliot” at the (possibly) more flippant end through to “The Black Stuff” and the subsequent TV series (in a “similar” industry/ area of thought).
Mostly the themes seem to revolve around perceived identity (in particular, notions of masculinity). I’m not sure that it isn’t akin to supporting, devoutly, a team under relegation and decline. It’s just incredibly difficult for some people to move on or “abandon” elements of their identity. Surely, you could cite many, seemingly unconnected, incidences of behaviour which probably have a similar root cause; such as the inability to move on at the end of a relationship etc.
All personality aspects that vary from person to person. Some people cope with change or loss well, some run away, some collapse, some shrug shoulders and some plough on regardless. I can’t see it being region or industry specific, simply human.

[Pantontino]

How much of the quarries actually has agreed access for climbing and how much is just climbed on anyway? None of the quarries look to be on access land.

Climbing is not officially sanctioned in any of the slate quarries. It is tolerated, partly because the landowners (First Hydro/Cyngor Gwynedd) know that it is impossible to police and also because they know that climbers are generally a force for good (clean up party mess, can rescue stray walkers who get in trouble, occasionally rescue stuck animals etc)

[SA Chris]

What about divers?

[teestub]

Climbing is not officially sanctioned in any of the slate quarries. It is tolerated, partly because the landowners (First Hydro/Cyngor Gwynedd) know that it is impossible to police and also because they know that climbers are generally a force for good (clean up party mess, can rescue stray walkers who get in trouble, occasionally rescue stuck animals etc)

Thanks Simon I thought this was the case, is there any potential to make the access more official with the land owners to get ahead of any future issues?

[seankenny]

For these interested, here is the relevant UNESCO page: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1633/

Clicking on the document tab gives access to the nomination document and the management plan (as well as other materials). I've downloaded and very briefly scanned the nomination document - it looks to be a fascinating piece of work and likely to answer many of the questions we were ineptly stumbling towards yesterday, particularly what it was that these people found of value in the culture, communities and lives they built in the region. From a first glance, I'd recommend it to anyone wanting to learn more.
...

Finally, I wish people would stop making the comparison to enslavement - it's wrong.

Thanks Andy, really good link. I read a bit of the history and background of the miners over breakfast this morning and it did indeed shed light on what we were discussing yesterday. From my brief reading, before the Industrial Revolution those guys were living on farms and wearing homespun cloth, total peasants, and as the quarries develop (funded at least in part by Caribbean plantation profits) many of them become highly skilled tradesmen. Many of them move from surrounding areas, places like Bethesda become small towns, there is a strong workers' community prizing education, literacy and debating (the caban culture JB refers to above, which I had heard of before but forgotten about). Skilled N Wales quarrymen find themselves in demand worldwide and one even ends up as a Fellow of the Royal Society. (This is all section 2b, well worth a read.)

So basically all the stuff that we associate with moving from the countryside to Manchester or Leeds took place in N Wales, albeit on a smaller scale. There's a great quote in the text from a history of the quarries:

"The confident culture of Welsh-speaking Wales, with its vigorous community life, its traditions of poetry, music-making and the visual arts, and its respect for learning, reflects how a once slow-moving, traditional minority culture adapted in the classic “Industrial” period and could meet new challenges again. The past tells a story in which confidence and a willingness to learn, to contemplate change and to engage with a new world, emerge as the main themes, more so even than the undoubted realities of sickness, exploitation
and fear which came with industrialisation."

So it would seem not slaves at all.

There's also I guess an interesting question about the role of capital, or "exploitative capitalists" as some posters might characterise them. Whilst not wanting to play down the brutality of Victorian capitalism, clearly without the injection of money and know-how into the industry the workers would not have been able to enjoy the improved pay and conditions that (eventually, hopefully) come from working in a much larger, more productive industry. It totally reminds me of the garment factories in Bangladesh - terrible conditions, exploitative, but also offering opportunities that don't exist in the village and giving the country as a whole a route out of poverty.

As for climbers, I think we have a story to tell that fits in quite well with the themes prevalent in the UNESCO documents: self-reliance, adaptability, a creative response to the post-industrial world. Given the rickety access situation, it seems to me that climbers should consider persauding the heritage bodies and others that we have a (small) place in the story of the quarries and that we represent one continuing use of them into the future. If climbing and seabirds can exist on the same cliffs then so can climbing and archeology - I think we have a strong precedent in the UK as to our general good behaviour and flexibility (also with the MoD in Pembroke). Not trying to play down the risks here or deny that local councils can often be destructive and idiotic, more saying that there are other people we can talk to if necessary who may be sympathetic and can bring pressure to bear, should it be necessary. 

[mrjonathanr]

Fair point. But the term ‘slavery’ seems an apt one to describe the power imbalance and working conditions of the slate quarrying industry.

Interesting letter to the Grauniad on just this theme today:
quote:
Your article (Welsh slate landscape becomes UK’s newest world heritage site, 28 July) did not mention the origins of the finance that enabled the expansion of the slate quarries at the end of the 18th century. In 1781, Richard Pennant inherited the family’s estates in Jamaica and in north Wales. He owned four sugar plantations in Jamaica, worked by more than a thousand enslaved workers. The money Pennant generated from sugar and slavery in Jamaica was invested in building road, railway and port infrastructure, as well as expanding the slate industry in Wales, in particular his Penrhyn slate quarry.

Pennant became MP for Petersfield in 1761 and, in 1767, one of the two MPs for Liverpool, Britain’s major slave trading port. He was chairman of the West India Committee, an organisation of merchants and plantation owners that campaigned for the continuation of slavery. He frequently spoke in the Commons against abolition of the slave trade.

The Pennant family continued to profit from both slate quarrying in Wales and slave-produced sugar and rum from Jamaica. Penrhyn Castle was built between 1822 and 1833 on the instructions of George Hay Dawkins-Pennant, who had inherited Richard Pennant’s estates in north Wales and Jamaica. Under the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, he received £14,683 17s 2d in compensation for the 764 enslaved labourers he claimed to own.

There is already a plaque in memory of the three-year Penrhyn quarrymen’s strike of 1900-03. Perhaps the Welsh government might like to consider another plaque in memory of the hundreds of enslaved labourers who were worked to death on the Pennants’ Jamaican plantations.
Dr Steve Cushion
Leytonstone, London

[Oldmanmatt]

Interestingly, though, this thread has concentrated much more on the men who worked the slate, than the men who’s fortunes financed the projects and I suspect that is going to be the case for the vast majority of those who visit or think about it at all. In fact, the “owners” when mentioned, seem to be regarded in a negative light, even by those sufficiently interested in finding out much about them.
Karma.

There has been some discussion, up thread, about reasons for migration, or lack there of. Got me reading (I love a good rabbit hole, me).
I came across this study, after idly wondering how dangerous an occupation such as being a Postman, might be, in comparison to something that seems so obviously dangerous as Quarryman. I still haven’t answered that, but this was intriguing.:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305748820300335

[Pantontino]

Climbing is not officially sanctioned in any of the slate quarries. It is tolerated, partly because the landowners (First Hydro/Cyngor Gwynedd) know that it is impossible to police and also because they know that climbers are generally a force for good (clean up party mess, can rescue stray walkers who get in trouble, occasionally rescue stuck animals etc)

Thanks Simon I thought this was the case, is there any potential to make the access more official with the land owners to get ahead of any future issues?

I doubt they would ever agree to that. The quarries are, after all, pretty unstable. There are regular rock falls, sometimes huge sections of cliff peeling off (Vivian is quite prone to this - check out the approach to Comes the Dervish nect time you are in Llanberis if you want to see what I mean!) I think the low key approach to access is the best way. We just keep on doing what we've always done but don't make too much fuss about it. The times when things have come to a head have been when our presence was too public, such as when large groups used to congregate at that easy bolted slab in Dali's Hole. This was in full view of the main path through the quarries so the landowner started to get nervous. A massive fence was erected and the bolts were removed. The climbers then all disappeared out of sight up into Australia - problem solved.

[Pantontino]

The quarries still seem to draw out the creative side of the local community. During the Covid restrictions last year the Glyn Rhonwy quarries especially were buzzing with activity. There were climbers cleaning up neglected routes, mountain bikers building trails, we even started bouldering on the remains of an old Haston E6 which had collapsed into the base of one of the quarries. I know someone who built themselves a little gym facility out of old quarry stuff. It's a strange and inspiring landscape to hang out in, full of startling places and random bits of art or old buildings and tunnels where you can shelter if the rain comes in.

[SA Chris]

I took what might have been one of my best B&W portraits of hongkongstuey while sitting in a hut in a quarry waiting for the rain. Must have it somewhere.

[Pantontino]

I'm not sure how many of you own a copy of the Ground Up Llanberis Slate guide from 2011, but it includes some great writing by Martin Crook about the history of the development of the quarries in the '80s. Martin paints a vivid picture of that anarchic scene but also makes some interesting connections between the lives of the original quarrymen and the latter day lycra-clad dole boys.

There's also a brilliant poem by Mark Goodwin called In Slate's Hands which overlays a shot of Ian Lloyd-Jones climbing in Twll Mawr. Ian was one of the most prolific new routers and his grandfather and great grandfather were quarrymen. The connections down through the different generations definitely exist and are still strongly felt.

When I was editing that book I knew it was important to dig into these deeper themes. Just walking round the quarries you can feel it in the air. I couldn't ignore it, I knew I had to try and capture some of that feeling and sense of history.

[Pantontino]

I took what might have been one of my best B&W portraits of hongkongstuey while sitting in a hut in a quarry waiting for the rain. Must have it somewhere.

Love to see that if you can find it.

[andy popp]

Some really interesting posts Simon, thank you.

Article in the Guardian that makes a connection between the quarrymen and the climbers (positively or not, I'm not sure).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/30/slate-quarries-wales-world-heritage-status

[andy popp]

Via twitter, I asked one of the project team if they felt the designation would have any implications - positive or negative - for climbers. This was the answer:

"that's a v fair question, certainly know how important the climbing is and we mention it in the document too as part of the history. WHS will not change that, nor will the status stop it, as there are no new rules or regs other than existing ones in place to manage it."

[Fiend]

That's good.

 Also Slate 2011 is an essential guide, including for the quality of the colour text, pity it never got a reprint.

[teestub]

As someone pointed out on the other channel, Portland and that entire coast is a World Heritage site, and that doesn’t seem to have had an impact on the climbing there, although I guess the access situation is v different.

[cheque]

I think the low key approach to access is the best way. We just keep on doing what we've always done but don't make too much fuss about it.

Via twitter, I asked one of the project team if they felt the designation would have any implications - positive or negative - for climbers.

  

That 2011 slate guide is a masterpiece. When I first got into climbing I was fascinated by slate but there was no guide in print- first time I went I had only a then ten-year-old copy of a climbing magazine I’d found as a guide  and when the guide did come out I read it from cover to cover. Such a shame to see it elbowed out of the way by a cookie-cutter replacement.

When my mates from the US came over I was on crutches but hired an automatic car and was able to take them to easily-accessible crags. Determined to show them climbing outside the Peak we went to Wales for the day and it was an experience they’ll never forget. Before we left they were asking if they needed their passports, they learnt that Wales had its own language when the road signs became bilingual and that the flag had a dragon on it (it’s pretty wild when you think about it!) from seeing it out of the window at Pete’s. Obviously mountain crags were out of the question but determination got me around quarries with them. They loved it- full awestruck scenes entering Australia, terror and amazement on Looning the Tube, Seams the Same was my mate’s first E1 and I took my first unassisted steps below Mental Lentils. One of the best days of my life I reckon.

[andy popp]

I think the low key approach to access is the best way. We just keep on doing what we've always done but don't make too much fuss about it.

Via twitter, I asked one of the project team if they felt the designation would have any implications - positive or negative - for climbers.

  

That 2011 slate guide is a masterpiece.

Um, I think they know climbing takes place, there being guides and all.

[slab_happy]

I'm not sure how many of you own a copy of the Ground Up Llanberis Slate guide from 2011, but it includes some great writing by Martin Crook about the history of the development of the quarries in the '80s. Martin paints a vivid picture of that anarchic scene but also makes some interesting connections between the lives of the original quarrymen and the latter day lycra-clad dole boys.

There's also a brilliant poem by Mark Goodwin called In Slate's Hands which overlays a shot of Ian Lloyd-Jones climbing in Twll Mawr. Ian was one of the most prolific new routers and his grandfather and great grandfather were quarrymen. The connections down through the different generations definitely exist and are still strongly felt.

When I was editing that book I knew it was important to dig into these deeper themes. Just walking round the quarries you can feel it in the air. I couldn't ignore it, I knew I had to try and capture some of that feeling and sense of history.

I love that book so much! Especially the history sections.

[SA Chris]

I took what might have been one of my best B&W portraits of hongkongstuey while sitting in a hut in a quarry waiting for the rain. Must have it somewhere.

Love to see that if you can find it.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/dbpage.php?id=1252 scan of it