[largeruk]

Also the data around vaccination preventing spread (rather than the data for prevention of serious illness) isn’t as good, afaik?

My concern is that being (double) vaccinated is somehow being associated with 'freedom' from risk - either personally or collectively. The Government's pivot towards personal responsibility while removing any incentives/requirements to eg mask wear or socially distance - even in public/crowded/indoor places - risks giving the impression that being double jabbed is a passport to 'freedom' with little or or no acknowledgement of the still significant risks of getting infected even when double-jabbed* and still unclear risks of transmission by those same people.

* See Table 1 on page 7 of latest Govt. update - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000512/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_27.pdf

[Fiend]

My strong suspicion is that a lot of "anti-vaxxers" would loudly protest about getting a jab and quietly get it when they realise their life will be harder and certain things impossible without it.

My afore-mentioned loon friend dearly loves going to Font and the Frankenjura and is resigning themselves to never doing that again due to their dogmatic loon stance. I told them to make sure they've got a good data allowance because next time I go to Font without them I'll be messaging them so many photos and videos my phone might melt.

There was something about getting an allotment and starting Good Life style farming as they thought they might not be allowed in supermarkets too.

BTW although I am dropping the anti-vaxxer bantz bombs I should point out that my friend's and my views do coincide a lot more closely when it comes to blanket lockdowns, actual restrictions of freedoms, and the government's position on the death-vs-disruption response to covid. As much as I find the loons ridiculous I am very much not a Tomtom-style militant lockdowneer fanatic #fulldisclaimer

[Will Hunt]

My strong suspicion is that a lot of "anti-vaxxers" would loudly protest about getting a jab and quietly get it when they realise their life will be harder and certain things impossible without it.

Doesn't that misunderstand what a lot of them believe? A lot/most/all (I don't know) are not anti-vaxx because it's not organic, they're opposed to it because they think it will kill anybody who has it within two years.

To really think about what might be the most reasonable way forward you need to first understand what the reasons are for people not getting the vaccine, how many of them there are, and how they're distributed. We currently tolerate all sorts of objections to medical treatment because the harm to society is fairly low and dispersed, and the reasoning might be on religious grounds which we tend not to argue with. Maybe the numbers of people in the UK who are vaccine hesitant/anti-vaxx crazy are actually low enough as to not threaten society?

[spidermonkey09]

I don't see a contradiction in our posts. on the libertarian side of the ledger, I agree that the numbers who are genuinely vaxx crazy are v small and likely to pose no threat to society. On the authoritarian side (which I do tend towards on this specific topic), I'm happy to piss this group off so have no problem with them being locked out of travel/clubs/pubs/sporting event.

I think there is a fairly significant minority that are vaxx hesitant, which I think could potentially pose a societal risk. I think there are a lot of carrots out there for getting vaxxed; a decreased risk of dying is obviously top of the list, along with preventing your family and friends from being excessively exposed et etc. I don't see a huge amount wrong with the slight use of the stick as well as the carrot to try and persuade the hesitant that they really should get jabbed. Selfishness and self interest is a much more powerful emotion than generosity ; maybe some are more likely to get jabbed for something tangible and concrete like 'no jab, no club/pint/travel' than the more empathetic 'get jabbed to protect granny.' 

[slab_happy]

Worth considering here that not everybody who declines one or both doses fits neatly into the nutjob-antivaxxer-we-don't-have-to-care-what-they-think category (that's not a category that I think exists, but I expect it's how a lot of people see it).

One friend had the 1st dose and had such a ghastly reaction that they won't be going for the 2nd. I believe they have a family history of this sort of reaction to vaccinations. If  remember correctly there are multiple medics in the family (late father was a consultant) who they have discussed this with, so hardly ignorant.

Another friend had the first dose and a day or two later her jab-arm went completely dead (and remained so for a while). Reported to the hospital where the doctors did plenty of tests but found no explanation.

You can argue all you like about the balance of risks, but this looks at the issue at a population level. These individuals quite reasonably perceive a risk to their health from having the second dose. If you have a vaccine you will definitely be exposed to the risks of having one; if you don't then you may actually avoid getting COVID-while-unvaccinated and thus avoid all the risks that go with that. I don't know if I would make the same decision that these people have made, but I don't think they are unreasonable decisions to make.

I'm undecided about whether they're ethically a good idea or not, but you have to recognise that widely adopting vaccine passports would be a massive divergence from our current position of allowing people to make their own decisions about their medical treatment without coercion.

As a practical point, it's been stated that the proposed system will have exemptions available for people unable to get vaccinated for medical reasons. Though I'd imagine that'd require something like an official letter from a doctor to confirm it.

[slab_happy]

My strong suspicion is that a lot of "anti-vaxxers" would loudly protest about getting a jab and quietly get it when they realise their life will be harder and certain things impossible without it.

Doesn't that misunderstand what a lot of them believe? A lot/most/all (I don't know) are not anti-vaxx because it's not organic, they're opposed to it because they think it will kill anybody who has it within two years.

To really think about what might be the most reasonable way forward you need to first understand what the reasons are for people not getting the vaccine, how many of them there are, and how they're distributed. We currently tolerate all sorts of objections to medical treatment because the harm to society is fairly low and dispersed, and the reasoning might be on religious grounds which we tend not to argue with. Maybe the numbers of people in the UK who are vaccine hesitant/anti-vaxx crazy are actually low enough as to not threaten society?

But then surely you're into the epidemiological, rather than the ethical.

Personally, I have zero ethical problems with having laws saying you can't participate in X activity without Y, when not-Y potentially causes serious harm to others. For example, you can't drive a car without having a license.

And we already have laws and regulations which stipulate that people have to have specific medical treatments if they want to do specific things.

For example, if you have seizures that affect consciousness, you're going to have to be on meds that control them if you want to have a driver's license. You can't be forced to have that medical treatment if you don't want it -- but if you decide you'd rather have the uncontrolled seizures than the meds side-effects, you don't get to keep your driver's license.

HOWEVER.

There's the whole separate question of whether "you have to be vaccinated to go to a nightclub (but only from September)" is going to be effective, proportionate, counter-productive, or whatever.

Is it actually going to achieve the goals it's aiming for (presumably, encouraging more people to get vaccinated and reducing spread)? Is it the best or most efficient way of doing those things? Is it potentially going to be counterproductive or harmful in some way (e.g. maybe by hardening some people's anti-vax stance, or as a thin end of the wedge way of introducing an ID card system)?

As I said, I have zero ethical problems with that kind of restriction in principle. But I have all sorts of concerns with this -- not least, that it's proposing to introduce a restriction way after it could make a really big difference (and I think that has a lot more to do with not wanting to damage the nightclub business by preventing twentysomethings from going clubbing now). Which makes me question whether any of this has been thought through (and with this government, I assume the answer is almost certainly "nah").

Okay, I have an ethical objection to imposing restrictions if they're likely to be ineffective and/or counter-productive, because I tend to feel "unecessary restrictions = bad".

But whether this is going to be effective or counter-productive or whatever -- to me that's a factual/epidemiological question.

[colin8ll]

Ethically, I think it's wrong to only letting people participate who are double vaccinated when spot tests are available which enable people to prove (more or less) that they are not infectious immediately prior to participating. Practically speaking, perhaps the lateral flow tests are not of sufficient accuracy to make for a workable system, but taking double vaccination as the gold standard seems a bit odd when we know double jabbed people can still catch covid (as per Sajid Javid) and may still be able to pass it on.
   

[jwi]

Many who are not taking the vaccine have not been taking the jab because they are in an economically precarious situation and cannot afford to loose out on income or might even loose their job if they get side effects that impede work for a few days. For them it is often completely rational to not vaccinate. Baring a complete overhaul of the barbarian system of McJobs (unlikely) it would be good if the whip (that I fully support) was accompanied by a carrot.

[ali k]

it would be good if the whip (that I fully support) was accompanied by a carrot.

You get a sticker.

[sdm]

Many who are not taking the vaccine have not been taking the jab because they are in an economically precarious situation and cannot afford to loose out on income or might even loose their job if they get side effects that impede work for a few days. For them it is often completely rational to not vaccinate.

Is that a significant issue?

Most side effects last less than 48 hours allowing you to book an appointment to coincide with time off. Plus there's the reduction in the chance of needing time off due to covid.

[duncan]

Many who are not taking the vaccine have not been taking the jab because they are in an economically precarious situation and cannot afford to loose out on income or might even loose their job if they get side effects that impede work for a few days. For them it is often completely rational to not vaccinate.

Is that a significant issue?

Most side effects last less than 48 hours allowing you to book an appointment to coincide with time off. Plus there's the reduction in the chance of needing time off due to covid.

It's a significant issue if you're an Uber driver and not getting paid for the time off.

I don't have major ethical concerns once everyone has had the opportunity (in the broadest sense, see jwi) to have both. Not sure that's yet the case.

A case study: my hairdresser revealed, mid-cut, she'd not had her vaccinations as "they weren't natural". I think my eyes rolled the full 360 degrees. She then said that she'd probably get them done in order to be able to travel.

[sdm]

Ethically, I think it's wrong to only letting people participate who are double vaccinated when spot tests are available which enable people to prove (more or less) that they are not infectious immediately prior to participating.

With people being incentivised to return a negative result, a self-administered negative test result does little to prove that someone is not infectious.

A small number of people will both perform the test correctly and report a positive test result honestly, but most won't when a negative result is a requirement for entry to something that they value.

[Wellsy]

Many who are not taking the vaccine have not been taking the jab because they are in an economically precarious situation and cannot afford to loose out on income or might even loose their job if they get side effects that impede work for a few days. For them it is often completely rational to not vaccinate.

Is that a significant issue?

Most side effects last less than 48 hours allowing you to book an appointment to coincide with time off. Plus there's the reduction in the chance of needing time off due to covid.

It's a significant issue if you're an Uber driver and not getting paid for the time off.

I don't have major ethical concerns once everyone has had the opportunity (in the broadest sense, see jwi) to have both. Not sure that's yet the case.

A case study: my hairdresser revealed, mid-cut, she'd not had her vaccinations as "they weren't natural". I think my eyes rolled the full 360 degrees. She then said that she'd probably get them done in order to be able to travel.

I know a waitress who always puts her phone number down wrong and always turns her bluetooth off. She can't afford to have to isolate. The system has, shall we say, some deep flaws.

[TobyD]

I still fail to see any problems with discrimination against unvaccinated people.  They're easy to get,  free, safe and without significant side effects compared to many other often taken medication. So either get vaccination or suck it up and don't go clubbing/ to the pub/ to football matches etc.

I don't have a problem with the government mandating this I don't think. By the time this is likely,  everyone will have had a chance to get it.

Many interesting points of view above, but I think most people would rather be a confined area with hundreds of people who were vaccinated than not?

[Fiend]

A case study: my hairdresser revealed, mid-cut, she'd not had her vaccinations as "they weren't natural". I think my eyes rolled the full 360 degrees. She then said that she'd probably get them done in order to be able to travel.

Woah wait a mo, hang on a sec, YOU have a HAiRDRESSER?? 

[Ged]

it would be good if the whip (that I fully support) was accompanied by a carrot.

You get a sticker.

WHAT??!! I'm marching back into our vaccine centre first thing tomorrow morning and kicking right off.

Joking aside, the place I went for my first jab were very hot on looking after us, long chats about risks and side effects, and then a timed 15 minute rest in a chair before you were allowed to leave. The second place, I didn't even get to sit down for the jab, which they pretty much wacked in as I was walking out the door.

The first place was Totnes though, so I guess they have to do everything they can to get people jabbed there.

[Wood FT]

it would be good if the whip (that I fully support) was accompanied by a carrot.

You get a sticker.

WHAT??!! I'm marching back into our vaccine centre first thing tomorrow morning and kicking right off.

Joking aside, the place I went for my first jab were very hot on looking after us, long chats about risks and side effects, and then a timed 15 minute rest in a chair before you were allowed to leave. The second place, I didn't even get to sit down for the jab, which they pretty much wacked in as I was walking out the door.

The first place was Totnes though, so I guess they have to do everything they can to get people jabbed there.

A Totnes vaccination centre, twinned with the Mary Celeste.

[TobyD]

it would be good if the whip (that I fully support) was accompanied by a carrot.

You get a sticker.

WHAT??!! I'm marching back into our vaccine centre first thing tomorrow morning and kicking right off.

Joking aside, the place I went for my first jab were very hot on looking after us, long chats about risks and side effects, and then a timed 15 minute rest in a chair before you were allowed to leave. The second place, I didn't even get to sit down for the jab, which they pretty much wacked in as I was walking out the door.

The first place was Totnes though, so I guess they have to do everything they can to get people jabbed there.

A Totnes vaccination centre, twinned with the Mary Celeste.

Totnes residents are probably worried that its something to do with 5G.

Lots of houses in Derbyshire have conspiracy rubbish flyers etc up about 5G and vaccination as well,  unfortunately. 

[Oldmanmatt]

it would be good if the whip (that I fully support) was accompanied by a carrot.

You get a sticker.

WHAT??!! I'm marching back into our vaccine centre first thing tomorrow morning and kicking right off.

Joking aside, the place I went for my first jab were very hot on looking after us, long chats about risks and side effects, and then a timed 15 minute rest in a chair before you were allowed to leave. The second place, I didn't even get to sit down for the jab, which they pretty much wacked in as I was walking out the door.

The first place was Totnes though, so I guess they have to do everything they can to get people jabbed there.

A Totnes vaccination centre, twinned with the Mary Celeste.

Totnes residents are probably worried that its something to do with 5G.

Lots of houses in Derbyshire have conspiracy rubbish flyers etc up about 5G and vaccination as well,  unfortunately.

Around here, it’s suddenly the young men that are baulking. The rumours around long term infertility and impotence are rife.
I hadn’t even heard of this until last week, when my 18 year old nephew vomited it up and now I’m hearing it everywhere (though still haven’t seen it written/posted).

[galpinos]

it would be good if the whip (that I fully support) was accompanied by a carrot.

You get a sticker.

WHAT??!! I'm marching back into our vaccine centre first thing tomorrow morning and kicking right off.

I had to ask for a sticker.

Joking aside, the place I went for my first jab were very hot on looking after us, long chats about risks and side effects, and then a timed 15 minute rest in a chair before you were allowed to leave. The second place, I didn't even get to sit down for the jab, which they pretty much wacked in as I was walking out the door.

The first place was Totnes though, so I guess they have to do everything they can to get people jabbed there.

Big queue on Monday for my second jab. Constant stream for the 25 mins I was there, nearly all second jab Covid or Moderna. Really efficient and excellent care ( I got a seat for the jab AND for the 15minute monitoring!)

[Wellsy]

TBH at the point where anyone could have been fully vaccinated, and they haven't (but not for medical reasons), I'm not particularly bothered if they can't go to the pub or whatever. Fuckwits don't get a lot of sympathy.

[User deactivated.]

Out of curiosity I logged back into social media yesterday and every status / comment I see (from friends and other people I know) is giving the reasons why they aren't having it. It seems they all start: "i'm not an anti vaxxer but..." Is this typical? Is the uptake very poor in younger people?

Most reasons given relate to it only being approved for emergency use and that their chance of survival from covid is ~ 99.9% so there's no point having a vaccine at all or certainly a new one. Often thrown in is comments about the government telling them what they can / can't do with their own bodies. Obviously there's a few nut jobs who think Bill Gates is trying to depopulate the world but it seems most are trying to distance themselves from these types.

By the way i've had my 1st jab months ago (not found time to get the 2nd one yet but the new rules will give me a kick up the arse).

[TobyD]

Is the uptake very poor in younger people? ...
 (not found time to get the 2nd one yet but the new rules will give me a kick up the arse).

There is your answer,  I suspect.  The main reason many people will have not been vaccinated is that they haven't overcome the tiny amount of inertia and just done it.
Apologies if you genuinely have a very time consuming job etc but it really doesn't take very long to get vaccination.  I think my second appointment took a whole 5 minutes,  check details,  shown to a table and chairs, repeat check, jab, advised to remain nearby for 15 minutes afterwards,  leave.

[User deactivated.]

Is the uptake very poor in younger people? ...
 (not found time to get the 2nd one yet but the new rules will give me a kick up the arse).

There is your answer,  I suspect.  The main reason many people will have not been vaccinated is that they haven't overcome the tiny amount of inertia and just done it.
Apologies if you genuinely have a very time consuming job etc but it really doesn't take very long to get vaccination.  I think my second appointment took a whole 5 minutes,  check details,  shown to a table and chairs, repeat check, jab, advised to remain nearby for 15 minutes afterwards,  leave.

I have a relatively busy job, 2 kids and lots of hobbies/interests. I don't watch TV or read the news and rarely log in to social media so I generally have no idea about what's going on with covid (frankly i'm fed up with hearing about it so tend to actively avoid). I just haven't made it a priority, but I will sort it out at some point.

[slab_happy]

Around here, it’s suddenly the young men that are baulking. The rumours around long term infertility and impotence are rife.
I hadn’t even heard of this until last week, when my 18 year old nephew vomited it up and now I’m hearing it everywhere (though still haven’t seen it written/posted).

The estimable Dr Viki Male's dropped some threads on this too:

https://twitter.com/VikiLovesFACS/status/1413086054790443009

Ironically, there are some indicators that getting Covid can cause erectile dysfunction:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/05/16/can-covid-19-coronavirus-cause-long-term-erectile-dysfunction-here-are-2-more-studies/