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Anyone not got your jab yet? Got concerns? Not got round to it? (Read 11728 times)

slab_happy

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Let's try this.

I have a headful of info and excellent medical search skills; I have even been in a vaccine trial; if anyone's got worries or feel they need to know more, I'm happy to talk (and sure others are too), and I promise to keep a lid on my sarcastic tendencies.

If you've got worries about particular side-effects or things you've heard about or whether there's enough data or what studies show -- please ask, I may be able to supply the info you're looking for!

And if you're in favour of vaccines in principle, but just haven't got round to getting yours yet, or aren't sure you need it -- please let me make the case for why you should get it a.s.a.p..

Fiend

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I have a friend (who has *just* about stayed a friend despite this) who despite being mature and well-educated, is a proper frothing-at-the-eyeballs anti-masker anti-vaxxer plandemic scamdemic great-reset covid-denying conspiracy loon (which in a rare moment of sympathy I have attributed to it simply being her distraught emotional reaction / psychological damage due to the trauma of the pandemic and all the various government dictates to deal with it - everyone has been affected and reacted in different ways).

She won't get the vaccine (despite being equally vehemently opposed to the lockdowns.....which the vaccines are clearly a method to avoid) because she has "seen documents and evidence" (said in an ominous "I can't say any more" voice). Would you like me to put her in touch?? I'd love to see a transcript of the discussions  ;D ::)

slab_happy

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Ha, I am probably not best suited to engage with that; I know the limits to my communications skill-set ... Also I suspect someone who's got their mind that firmly made up is not open to having someone else try to change it.

But maybe someone else is equipped?

On the other hand, I am a massive nerd who is incapable of having any medical treatment without feeling I've educated myself about it beforehand.

So people who feel like they need more info, or that they don't know how to sort through conflicting claims they've heard -- okay, that I can understand and respect, and maybe help with! Because fair enough!

Iwhich in a rare moment of sympathy I have attributed to it simply being her distraught emotional reaction / psychological damage due to the trauma of the pandemic and all the various government dictates to deal with it - everyone has been affected and reacted in different ways).

Yeah, I've found it helpful in various ways to remind myself that we're all going through a traumatic event (one which meets the official criteria psychologists use when diagnosing PTSD), so it's not surprising if we're all a bit more fucked up in the head and less rational than usual. Speaking as someone who was quite fucked up in the head to begin with.

And this is a scary scary time and we've all had to cope with a lot of changes and a huge amount of uncertainty and a barrage of new information on subjects most of us didn't have to know about before, so it's also not surprising if it can be very hard to evaluate that new info and make decisions.

kelvin

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I have a friend (who has *just* about stayed a friend despite this) who despite being mature and well-educated, is a proper frothing-at-the-eyeballs anti-masker anti-vaxxer plandemic scamdemic great-reset covid-denying conspiracy loon (which in a rare moment of sympathy I have attributed to it simply being her distraught emotional reaction / psychological damage due to the trauma of the pandemic and all the various government dictates to deal with it - everyone has been affected and reacted in different ways).

She won't get the vaccine (despite being equally vehemently opposed to the lockdowns.....which the vaccines are clearly a method to avoid) because she has "seen documents and evidence" (said in an ominous "I can't say any more" voice). Would you like me to put her in touch?? I'd love to see a transcript of the discussions  ;D ::)

I didn't realise you knew my partner's sister 😀

Seriously, I'm a bit shocked of late at all the previously seemingly sensible people who are heading into the rabbit hole and believing anything they're told.
I'm almost at the point of thinking that the antivax thing is a conspiracy and they're all getting subliminal messages through YouTube or something 😳

Fiend

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Seriously, I'm a bit shocked of late at all the previously seemingly sensible people who are heading into the rabbit hole and believing anything they're told.
Like us sheeple all mindlessly following the government statistics and guidelines  :o

slab_happy

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[Like us sheeple all mindlessly following the government statistics and guidelines  :o

To be fair, the government's handling of the pandemic should be enough to convince anything that they're a bunch of incompetent bullshitters making it up as they go along.

So I can see why "get your vaccine because the government says to!" is not a trust-inducing sell.

(I prefer "mercifully, this bunch of bastards were not responsible for any of the science".)

Ged

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There was a van parked up in Llanberis last weekend with a sticker on it that said "the idea that a human breathing near another human can be dangerous is the biggest con in history". I wanted to point out that 50 million people around the world after ww1, the entire aztec and inca populations, and half of working class Ireland in the 1920s would beg to differ. But how do you argue with these people?

petejh

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I say jab them in their sleep. It's the only way to be sure.

Oldmanmatt

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I say jab them in their sleep. It's the only way to be sure.

Far too kind.

Can’t we let nature take it’s course?


(I might not be best placed for such decisions at 2:50am on a sleepless night, waiting for the long shot of single malt to lull me into oblivion… but… I can’t help but bring to mind Kenny Everet’s “General Cheeseburger”…
“Round ‘em up, put ‘em in a field and…..”).




Seriously, though, after the last few years of populist shit, of Brexit and Johnson and Trump and, and, and, et al. It’s getting hard to be understanding and respectful of “people’s” opinions, when every fibre of my being wants to scream at the thought of them actually having a vote, that might decide my children’s futures.

Possibly, the worst part is that it is “populist”.

That old homily about “the poor shall always be with us”, whilst grimly sad in it’s accuracy, is woefully short of the mark, for neglecting the “a bit thick” and “the credulous”; who (in fact) seem to swamp us.

Do remind drunk Matt, not to post whilst drunk, tomorrow.
May you all sleep better than me.

slab_happy

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But how do you argue with these people?

See, I think there are two different groups we're talking about here. There are the committed anti-vaxxers, who are pretty far down the rabbit hole (and working out how to de-radicalize people who've gone that deep is a whole field of study).

But studies (and personal experience) suggest there are also a lot of "vaccine-hesitant" people out there, who are just not sure yet, and who are potentially open to being convinced.

They might not be against the Covid vaccine in general, but they've heard stuff that worries them and don't have time/energy to sort out what's true yet, or they feel they don't know enough yet, and/or they figure they're in their 20s/30s and healthy so there's no rush for them to get it, etc..

With that group, going YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS AND YOU DESERVE TO DIE is probably not the best way to open a conversation.

slab_happy

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Because it's one thing that worries people a lot -- immunologist Andrew Croxford has a fantastic thread on the "But there's no long-term safety data!" argument and why that isn't actually a worry here:

https://twitter.com/andrew_croxford/status/1416414041329786881

Viki Male (immunologist working on pregnancy specifically) maintains a great explainer on the evidence re: the Covid vaccines and fertility, pregnancy and breastfeeding, and also does heroic work talking through the data with people who are concerned:

https://twitter.com/VikiLovesFACS/status/1367099701238116353

andy popp

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Amidst stalling vaccination rates in the UK, especially for second vaccinations, my 23 year old daughter presented herself at a walk-in centre in St Helens yesterday ... and was turned away, despite the centre having doses on hand. She is more than 28 days post her first shot of Moderna. Why the hell, at this point, are they not simply vaccinating every eligible* person who presents themselves. She is distraught.

*eligible in the sense of recommended elapse of time between doses.

Nigel

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FYI for those in Sheffield who have had one Pfizer, Darnall walk in will definitely give you a second dose after 3 weeks from first - partner did it yesterday. This is in contrast to a nearer walk in which said it was more than their job was worth to break 8 weeks gap. So depends where you go...

andy popp

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FYI for those in Sheffield who have had one Pfizer, Darnall walk in will definitely give you a second dose after 3 weeks from first ... So depends where you go...

Several of my daughter's friends (same age) have had no trouble getting a second Pfizer post-21 days, so I don't know if it's somewhat dependent on type of vaccine as well?

slab_happy

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Why the hell, at this point, are they not simply vaccinating every eligible* person who presents themselves.

mRNA supply logistics, it's suspected.

https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1412831584034738178

And choosing to respond to that by rigidly enforcing the 8-week limit (even though we know perfectly well that the mRNA vaccines work fine with a 21/28 day interval).

andy popp

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Why the hell, at this point, are they not simply vaccinating every eligible* person who presents themselves.

mRNA supply logistics, it's suspected.

https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1412831584034738178

And choosing to respond to that by rigidly enforcing the 8-week limit (even though we know perfectly well that the mRNA vaccines work fine with a 21/28 day interval).

Realistically, I know the explanation will be logistics - but in the current context (surging rates) rigidity makes no sense to. Obviously, I know I'm also pleading a highly personal case here (I'm really pissed off, in other words).

slab_happy

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Several of my daughter's friends (same age) have had no trouble getting a second Pfizer post-21 days, so I don't know if it's somewhat dependent on type of vaccine as well?

Could be -- there's only a small amount of Moderna around in the UK at the moment.

Of course, Pfizer and Moderna are functionally interchangeable (they're almost identical), so mixing them is going to make zero difference and Canada's already okayed doing that, but the UK has not.

kelvin

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Because it's one thing that worries people a lot -- immunologist Andrew Croxford has a fantastic thread on the "But there's no long-term safety data!" argument and why that isn't actually a worry here:

https://twitter.com/andrew_croxford/status/1416414041329786881

Viki Male (immunologist working on pregnancy specifically) maintains a great explainer on the evidence re: the Covid vaccines and fertility, pregnancy and breastfeeding, and also does heroic work talking through the data with people who are concerned:

https://twitter.com/VikiLovesFACS/status/1367099701238116353

Thanks for the last link, the Google Doc it links to will be great for a pregnant customer who's a bit worried.

slab_happy

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Because it's one thing that worries people a lot -- immunologist Andrew Croxford has a fantastic thread on the "But there's no long-term safety data!" argument and why that isn't actually a worry here:

https://twitter.com/andrew_croxford/status/1416414041329786881

Viki Male (immunologist working on pregnancy specifically) maintains a great explainer on the evidence re: the Covid vaccines and fertility, pregnancy and breastfeeding, and also does heroic work talking through the data with people who are concerned:

https://twitter.com/VikiLovesFACS/status/1367099701238116353

Thanks for the last link, the Google Doc it links to will be great for a pregnant customer who's a bit worried.

Yeah, it's fantastic, isn't it? She's also great at talking through the data with people in a non-patronizing and patient way.

It's also worth people being aware that getting Covid during pregnancy can be nasty -- if you have Covid, being pregnant increases the risk that you'll need ICU treatment or die, and Covid increases the risk of preterm delivery and of babies needing to be admitted to NICU:

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3320

This is from an ICU nurse:

https://twitter.com/kathryniveyy/status/1387247990977478656

There's so much pressure on pregnant people to be paranoid that if you eat the wrong thing or take the wrong medication you'll damage your baby permanently; I can totally see why people get anxious about the Covid vaccines (especially with the bonus of the UK's very unclear communications about this) and worry that maybe it'd be safer to avoid them until after birth.

But the data on their safety in pregnancy is now really good, and the data on Covid in pregnancy is really alarming.

Oldmanmatt

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Amidst stalling vaccination rates in the UK, especially for second vaccinations, my 23 year old daughter presented herself at a walk-in centre in St Helens yesterday ... and was turned away, despite the centre having doses on hand. She is more than 28 days post her first shot of Moderna. Why the hell, at this point, are they not simply vaccinating every eligible* person who presents themselves. She is distraught.

*eligible in the sense of recommended elapse of time between doses.

Now my Paracetamol/Ibuprofen/coffee/chocolate digestives have kicked in…

I’m not too clear on why you see this as “stalling rates”? 188K second doses yesterday and just shy of 68K first doses yesterday.
So, if maintained, ~100 days to full vaccination, first and second dose.
I suppose, given that as much as 10% of the population might not seek vaccination, we’re looking at two months-ish and we’ll have got as much done as we probably will.
I can see the supply issues slowing things, but aren’t we into a section of the population that is also going to struggle to find time, both for appointments and the knock on of side effects? Young families, relatively junior work positions making time off harder to arrange etc etc?

andy popp

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OK, stalled was probably a bit strong, but those numbers are a decline ... and, as I acknowledged above, I'm feeling pissed off this morning (with some justification IMO, not helped by the fact that late yesterday Denmark moved the UK to its red list, so a visit is now almost impossible anyway, even for the double vaccinated).

duncan

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But how do you argue with these people?

See, I think there are two different groups we're talking about here. There are the committed anti-vaxxers, who are pretty far down the rabbit hole (and working out how to de-radicalize people who've gone that deep is a whole field of study).

But studies (and personal experience) suggest there are also a lot of "vaccine-hesitant" people out there, who are just not sure yet, and who are potentially open to being convinced.

They might not be against the Covid vaccine in general, but they've heard stuff that worries them and don't have time/energy to sort out what's true yet, or they feel they don't know enough yet, and/or they figure they're in their 20s/30s and healthy so there's no rush for them to get it, etc..

With that group, going YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS AND YOU DESERVE TO DIE is probably not the best way to open a conversation.

Spot on. Sadly, the dyed-in-the-wool deniers are a cult and highly unlikely to change their minds. Fortunately, they are a small percentage of the population (overall) but it can be very distressing if a friend or family falls into this camp. Best ignore or mute them on social media for your own mental health and to not amplify their message.

For the concerned, gently explore beliefs, empathise with their worries - whatever they are ("totally understand you don't trust the current government") before addressing them.

If you’re dealing with a waverer who comes with big business / pharma / government / international agency mistrust you might consider pointing them in the direction of Larry Brilliant. He’s the former personal doctor to the Grateful Dead (!), who joined the WHO smallpox eradication programme in India on the advice of his guru after several years at an Ashram, and is now a world expert on vaccination programmes.

Interviewed on the How To Vaccinate the World podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000qz3p




 

steveri

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my 23 year old daughter presented herself at a walk-in centre in St Helens yesterday ... and was turned away,

At the risk of spreading internet nonsense, my wife tried to volunteer there (NHS with all the background training/documentation). The application and onboarding was a triumph of bureaucracy and mishap, she’s still never done a shift there.

Hope your daughter is sorted soon, hopefully low risk and just wants to get it done.

slab_happy

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Dr Brilliant is also in https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000w6s5/extra-life-a-short-history-of-living-longer-series-1-1-vaccines

In which he made me unexpectedly get teary when he was talking about meeting a little girl in Bangladesh and knowing that she was going to be the last human being who had smallpox ever.

(Okay, technically last known human to catch variola major in the wild, whatever.)

It also features the excellent Dr Kizzmekia Corbett, lead on the Moderna Covid vaccine team and a phenomenal science communicator.

And in general it might be a good thing to lob at people who are coming from a starting point of distrusting government/authorities -- the series is strong on awareness of power and inequalities, particularly race and class, and very good at explaining the medical history and being extremely pro- vaccines and other interventions, but without pretending that doctors and governments have always been right.

(Because one thing you learn from the history of medicine is just how often they haven't been.)

slab_happy

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Also, this is the postcard Dr Brilliant mailed to his guru to let him know that smallpox had been eradicated:

https://twitter.com/tarun281992/status/1409854481953542144

 

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