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Identifying Weaknesses (Read 9253 times)

duncan

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#25 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 01:19:17 pm
I can definitely at least 20kgs added weight on my base weight of 75kgs on a 20mm edge for 7 seconds and 7A is my max outdoor bouldering grade. I dunno what that means at all though.
It means you've great basic finger strength and can look forward to climbing much harder than 7A in the future. Current training emphasis could be elsewhere: flexibility; movement skills, especially on rock?  Climb with people better than you.


I'm sure Dave Mac wrote something about potential bias in things such as the lattice dataset.
I'm sure Lattice are aware of it. It's just an indication that people interested in training tend to be good at training exercises. You can't put 'from a database of obsessive training nerds, 140% of bodyweight for 7 seconds on a 20mm edge is typical of 8a route climbers' in your marketing material though.

cheque

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#26 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 01:21:44 pm
Murph who used to post on here was terrifyingly strong on a fingerboard but any 7th grade boulder problems apart from Trackside required a protracted soul-searching siege. His climbing and training seemed to be 95% climbing “murples” at the Works, fingerboarding, lapping Trackside and doing a few easy problems while herding his kids around Robin Hood’s Stride. You only get good at what you do.

Bear in mind that any advice you get about your weaknesses is going to be heavily coloured by who you ask. People who love training are going to tell you you don’t train enough, people who’ve got good without ever going to the climbing wall will tell you to do loads of mileage on rock. People who think they’ve mastered climbing but just need to be stronger in some way will tell you that you need to be stronger in that way too etc.

I don’t think it’s controversial to say that with only one year of rock climbing and two years of climbing total under your belt campus strength isn’t your biggest weakness- you’re still at an early stage of learning and the time you put into strength training that’s abstracted from climbing is time you could be learning.

petejh

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#27 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 01:30:34 pm
Without wanting to get too far into the weeds, I think asking 'what am I crap at?' is the wrong question, because it's trying to define the wrong problem.

Assuming the goal is 'to successfully climb route y or boulder x'*, then the problem isn't 'being crap' at something. The problem is 'failing on route y or boulder x'.
This is because you can be crap, relative to peers and according to the wisdom of a benchmarking model, while still being skin-of-your teeth good enough to get up your goal routes and boulders.
I say this because of the truth staring us in the face of the many outliers to the received wisdom of models, some of them mentioned on here.. It's clearly true that you don't need to be getting PBs on training goals or achieve someone else's training benchmark to climb well enough to achieve goal climbs. There are endless examples in climbing of people whose finger strength isn't as high as it could be but who climb much harder than they 'should' according to a model, and endless examples of people with very good finger strength who don't achieve success on the routes they 'should' according to a model.

I do think part of the appeal of a model - Lattice is a well known one - is it enables a game of peer comparison like social media (which appeals to most of us) where you can compare your finger strength, fitness etc. to other people and against standard benchmarks. You also get the little badge of achievement thing of getting a 'rating' of what grade you're theoretically capable of. We all love a test to see how we compare to others. But it isn't especially meaningful for the goal of getting up climbs.

Whereas focussing on the immediate reason why you failed on the goal route/boulder can, if you're honest and analytical, and have some experience of seeing other climbers doing similar routes, be black and white. With a bit of experience it's not as hard as you think to understand why you failed.

Also, trying to work out 'what am I crap at' is always going to be a nebulous, relative concept - who are you comparing to, and where on the scale does 'crap' become 'good'? It doesn't really work. We're all 'crap' compared to some and good compared to others. Which is why people came up with supposed objective models..

I notice you're only talking about bouldering. I think perhaps with bouldering getting really strong fingers will overcome a lot of other possible reasons for failure, and having strong finger will mask other potential reasons for failure more than in route climbing. I think routes overall require more overall ingredients for success, and steely fingers won't get you as far before some other reason rears it's head to make you fail.



* It's a good question to ask if the end goal is to have good all-round balanced levels of strength, fitness and flexibility. What you then do with that potential is more difficult to predict.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 01:46:33 pm by petejh »

duncan

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#28 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 01:34:03 pm
I like the cynicism  ;D. I also fall short in terms of finger strength according to Lattice, but that's kind of my point: it's seldom the other way round (at least i've not heard anyone admit to it...). With sufficient cunning you can usually trick your way up something harder than your fingers allow for (particularly on grit), but i've seen people with strong fingers campus up problems where I had to use every trick in the book!

I'm not a complete cynic, I think what Lattice are trying to do is very interesting. I do think they are very over-optimistic in public about the usefulness of their models and I have a low tolerance of Bad Science in marketing.

Wellsy

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#29 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 01:37:11 pm
I think trying to work efficiency once you're overly strong is particularly tricky; firstly it takes a toll mentally but if you're physically able, it's really hard to stop yourself 'over-powering' something etc.

I'm sure Dave Mac wrote something about potential bias in things such as the lattice dataset.

I like the fun game of take a problem you can do laps on, and carefully work out the easiest way to do it. Experiment with the sequence and moves, find the best way up. Quite a fun way to spend time IMO

Liamhutch89

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#30 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 02:32:31 pm

If what you say is true then what i'm saying is clearly wrong, but i'm yet to see anyone 1 arm a lattice rung and then max out at 7B on rock. Are there really lots of people who can do this?

I do have a friend who is *insanely* strong in metrics, but performs poorly on rock. He's hanging with weight one-armed on the Lattice edge (I think his predicted potential was ~8B/+ form fingers alone) and goodness knows how many one-arm pull-ups he can do/what weight he can pull, BUT has maxed out at 7B+ on rock. Technique is appalling, like it is painful to watch him climb. Like feet don't exist. Interestingly, this also applies to board climbing, he maxes out on the Moon board at about 7B I think.

Fair enough. Basically everything i've said in this thread is nonsense then. Wellsy, please just ignore me  ;D

Wellsy

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#31 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 02:37:46 pm
I think your points are very relevant to someone whose limiting factor is their fingers! I don't think mine are though, it's clearly some elements of technique (and again that's a tricky question, it's all very well saying "climb better" but how? Where's my technique bad?) And therefore for me just fingerboarding wouldn't be mega helpful. Though I probably should. I did for about a couple of months and then stopped when I could climb again lol

Paul B

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#32 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 03:03:41 pm
I like the fun game of take a problem you can do laps on, and carefully work out the easiest way to do it. Experiment with the sequence and moves, find the best way up. Quite a fun way to spend time IMO

I spent a sport season climbing a lot with a UKB exile who was significantly weaker than me yet day to day he was getting up the same stuff I was, probably with a little less fuss (we were probably equal on minor tantrums). He was also seeing continued improvement throughout the grades whereas I've spent ages (yrs) working out how not climb like a total dunce. To me it made me question where I direct (or have directed) my time a little and I've had to spend quite a lot of time getting to that point.

I'm quite interested to read Ned's book because to me, he's someone that's both very strong and very good.

I'm not a complete cynic...

Me neither (I think). I struggle with FB group posts where plans are being used to attain things that IMO (elitism) don't require them (/elitism).

SA Chris

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#33 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 03:17:49 pm
it's all very well saying "climb better" but how? Where's my technique bad?

See my original post?

Wellsy

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#34 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 03:23:51 pm
it's all very well saying "climb better" but how? Where's my technique bad?

See my original post?

Oh aye I'm more saying that the hypothetical climber asks that question and it's not the easiest to work out. You're not wrong though.

erm, sam

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#35 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 03:29:52 pm
You could buy John Kettle's "rock climbing technique" book and work through the exercises. There are lots of different drills that cover lots of different aspects of momement technique. By the time you had tried them all you would know which felt natural and which took some work, giving you a number of things to work on.

https://www.johnkettle.com/technique-book

SA Chris

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#36 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 05:15:09 pm
it's all very well saying "climb better" but how? Where's my technique bad?

See my original post?

Oh aye I'm more saying that the hypothetical climber asks that question and it's not the easiest to work out. You're not wrong though.

there is no panacea

Doylo

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#37 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 05:49:23 pm
‘Work your weaknesses’ is the most bollocks saying in climbing. Unless you’re full time etc just do what you like/ are good at. Actually it’s the second most bollocks saying. The first is ‘injuries make you stronger in the long run’ - in reality they make you miserable, you lose years of hard Work if a long one and time you’ll never get back. 
#BollocksSayings

abarro81

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#38 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 06:13:15 pm
The first is ‘injuries make you stronger in the long run’ - in reality they make you miserable, you lose years of hard Work if a long one and time you’ll never get back. 
#BollocksSayings

It's funny, I remember many years ago seeing some bullshit "injuries make you stronger/better in the long run"/"every cloud has a sliver lining" type post from Shauna when she got injured. Like the miserable dick I am, I thought to myself "let's see you spout that shit when you've been injured for multiple years in a row"... bet she doesn't do many posts like that now.

Doylo

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#39 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 06:20:45 pm
It’s a fallacy of the highest order.   :shit:
But in the next breath they say consistency is the most important thing for gains , so both statements can’t be fuckin right ?!

SA Chris

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#40 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 06:58:10 pm
Surely getting injured easily is a weakness in itself?
 

moose

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#41 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 07:42:04 pm
Surely getting injured easily is a weakness in itself?

NFL coaches like to say "the best ability is availability"

Wellsy

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#42 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 08:46:31 pm
‘Work your weaknesses’ is the most bollocks saying in climbing. Unless you’re full time etc just do what you like/ are good at. Actually it’s the second most bollocks saying. The first is ‘injuries make you stronger in the long run’ - in reality they make you miserable, you lose years of hard Work if a long one and time you’ll never get back. 
#BollocksSayings

What I like is getting better and climbing harder though so in a sense I like learning what I am not good at and getting good at it. But yeah have fun and don't get injured is fair.

cheque

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#43 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 09:13:27 pm
The contrast between the sunny enthusiasm of aspirant hard boulderer Wellsy and the jaded misery of 8B Doylo and 8B+ Barrows is quite something. Careful what you wish for Wellsy.  :lol:

Wellsy

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#44 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 09:22:37 pm
The contrast between the sunny enthusiasm of aspirant hard boulderer Wellsy and the jaded misery of 8B Doylo and 8B+ Barrows is quite something. Careful what you wish for Wellsy.  :lol:

I watched Fear and Loathing in Llandudno, I'm well aware  ;D Snubbed at the BAFTAS imo

Well what are early days for if not psychotic focus and enthusiasm, anyway

Doylo

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#45 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 10:50:36 pm
Like with most things in life , you soon learn that all that glistens isn’t gold..

SA Chris

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#46 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 11:14:00 pm
nah, fresh shit glistens too.

TobyD

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#47 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 17, 2021, 10:15:20 am
The first is ‘injuries make you stronger in the long run’ - in reality they make you miserable, you lose years of hard Work if a long one and time you’ll never get back. 
#BollocksSayings

It's funny, I remember many years ago seeing some bullshit "injuries make you stronger/better in the long run"/"every cloud has a sliver lining" type post from Shauna when she got injured. Like the miserable dick I am, I thought to myself "let's see you spout that shit when you've been injured for multiple years in a row"... bet she doesn't do many posts like that now.

Yup. I bet you don't hear Chris Froome saying how glad he is that he had a horrible crash, and I've not noticed a leap in his performance in this year's TDF.

I think Pete's argument that identifying a specific reason for failure is probably the best way to identify a weakness.  I wonder how many of the people who are objectively very strong but underperform actually have a failure to commit on rock?

Fiend

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#48 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 17, 2021, 10:37:01 am
You can pigeonhole why you failed into broad categories for the purpose of identifying weakness.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I was too pumped.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I wasn't strong enough in my fingers/shoulders/biceps.
I couldn't do the move(s) because my core/tension/chain couldn't hold my foot/hip/shoulder in the most efficient position required.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I wasn't flexible enough.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I was too nervous of committing due to fear (of falling, of failure, of injury)

Mostly:
Reach.
Conditions.

(Good answer to a good question btw)

WilliCrater

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#49 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 17, 2021, 01:00:35 pm

Part of the problem, though, is identifying your weaknesses.

Don't know if you're interested in such things but I developed an app to help with exactly this.  It's available for android devices, is free, doesn't have any ads, and won't definitely install ransomware.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=online.adventureapps.csaw2&hl=en_US&gl=US

 

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