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Identifying Weaknesses (Read 9254 times)

Wellsy

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Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 10:49:33 am
Generally speaking there are a huge amount of resources out there for how to fix your weaknesses in climbing, either informal advice, professional training, youtube videos etc. If your fingers are weak, fingerboard. If your footwork is bad, foot drills, etc etc etc.

Part of the problem, though, is identifying your weaknesses. That's actually quite hard to do, especially when you climb harder than maybe your usual climbing partners, or usually climb alone, or are somewhat inexperienced. It's all too common to hear "I am not strong enough" from new people and we know that actually what they mean is they aren't using their strength effectively (not that they don't need to get stronger, but it's not their immediate issue), but once you get past that a bit it starts to be really hard to know where should my training focus be?

I recently hung out with a friend who has a lot more experience than me who identified that I am actually pretty poor at generating power from just my forearms with bad feet, and that while I am good at keeping my feet on, I also need to focus on generating dynamic power where I cut as sometimes that is the best way to do a mood. The solution; campus boarding and doing dynamic moves on the beastmaker board. However that's probably been a weakness of mine for a while, and I never noticed! How do you guys identify your specific weaknesses (not "I could do with better technique" that's far too broad, I mean specifically an area which is trainable in your next cycle), or in fact is that just something that's really hard to do without having an experienced from or, for the billy no mates, forking out to the lattice boys and girls or somesuch?

petejh

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#1 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 11:40:28 am
Good question.

Advice I had years ago on this, to give a ballpark idea of your weakness, was - 'why, specifically, did you fail?'

You can pigeonhole why you failed into broad categories for the purpose of identifying weakness.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I was too pumped.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I wasn't strong enough in my fingers/shoulders/biceps.
I couldn't do the move(s) because my core/tension/chain couldn't hold my foot/hip/shoulder in the most efficient position required.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I wasn't flexible enough.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I was too nervous of committing due to fear (of falling, of failure, of injury)

Those are the most common five reasons for failing on any climb/boulder. Obvs there are different reasons within the categories, for e.g. you might be 'too pumped', but the reason might not actually be fitness it might be you're gripping too tightly and learning relaxation on every hold results in less pump. Or you might be weak in a chain of tension due to injury. Not flexible enough due to scar tissue build-up. Etc.

My biggest weakness is laziness.

SA Chris

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#2 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 11:52:29 am
Expensive option - get some coaching.

Cheap option - climb on a variety of different types of problems, spend time to work on ones that you find hard but should be able to do at that grade* and work out what holds you back from doing them.

If you can, climbing with other people as who are happy to look at what you do and give you feedback.


* except in Font, even easy stuff there is hard.

M1V0

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#3 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 12:05:05 pm
I find video feedback to be useful, film yourself on hard stuff or whatever and watch it back. Quite often I discover something that can be worked on. For example, I found in a lot of older videos I would readjust my grip position quite often, bouncing around on holds, which just wasted time and energy. Not something that's always obvious when you are climbing because you're rather involved, but very clear in video playback.

Paul B

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#4 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 12:25:11 pm
There was an old CragX article on this a while ago (written by Jerry I think?) which had a spider diagram on it, the idea being you printed it off and gave it to your mates (what you say, the people you climb with don't constantly point out your weaknesses anyway?) and they each scored you on a number of things allowing you to see what was your perceived weakness. I think it suggested you score yourself as a comparison. I can't find it on the Wayback machine but I'm sure it's there somewhere.

For me the easiest way to look at my weaknesses would be to admit what I don't like doing (stretching for instance  :chair:).

SA Chris

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#5 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 12:32:37 pm
I found in a lot of older videos I would readjust my grip position quite often, bouncing around on holds, which just wasted time and energy.

I've seen a strong local person who does that. Looks like a chameleon, quite strange.   

Wellsy

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#6 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 06:53:18 pm
Good question.

Advice I had years ago on this, to give a ballpark idea of your weakness, was - 'why, specifically, did you fail?'

You can pigeonhole why you failed into broad categories for the purpose of identifying weakness.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I was too pumped.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I wasn't strong enough in my fingers/shoulders/biceps.
I couldn't do the move(s) because my core/tension/chain couldn't hold my foot/hip/shoulder in the most efficient position required.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I wasn't flexible enough.
I couldn't do the move(s) because I was too nervous of committing due to fear (of falling, of failure, of injury)

Those are the most common five reasons for failing on any climb/boulder. Obvs there are different reasons within the categories, for e.g. you might be 'too pumped', but the reason might not actually be fitness it might be you're gripping too tightly and learning relaxation on every hold results in less pump. Or you might be weak in a chain of tension due to injury. Not flexible enough due to scar tissue build-up. Etc.

My biggest weakness is laziness.

I think that does make sense, but I do also think it's relatively tricky to actually know why you couldn't do the climb. Or rather; to correctly identify why, rather than misidentify. Are your fingers too weak? Or are you just bad at getting your weight on your toes? One may feel like the other. I think that's the hard part. Correctly working out what you are crap at.

Liamhutch89

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#7 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 08:39:15 pm
I think that does make sense, but I do also think it's relatively tricky to actually know why you couldn't do the climb. Or rather; to correctly identify why, rather than misidentify. Are your fingers too weak? Or are you just bad at getting your weight on your toes? One may feel like the other. I think that's the hard part. Correctly working out what you are crap at.

In that example, the solution doesn't really require knowing which one is the weakness. Climb lots of stuff with small holds and it will train both.

Wellsy

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#8 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 09:58:13 pm
I think that does make sense, but I do also think it's relatively tricky to actually know why you couldn't do the climb. Or rather; to correctly identify why, rather than misidentify. Are your fingers too weak? Or are you just bad at getting your weight on your toes? One may feel like the other. I think that's the hard part. Correctly working out what you are crap at.

In that example, the solution doesn't really require knowing which one is the weakness. Climb lots of stuff with small holds and it will train both.

Sure, but fingerboarding won't, for example. I just think it seems tricky to do in my (limited) experience, is all.

SA Chris

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#9 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 10:18:16 pm
Sometimes it can also be that you can't do a move simply because you don't know how to do the move. Having a wide arsenal of move that you know can help you (dropping a knee, using a heel, twisting a shoulder into a move) are skills that take a long a time to acquire as the actual "physicality to do the harder moves, hence the recommendation for mileage  across a variety of angles and grades, to acquire the "technical" movement skills, rather than prostrating yourself at the altar of power.

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#10 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 10:32:13 pm
I suspect most weaknesses are addressed at least in part by climbing on a board with terrible footholds (fingers, core, power to varing degrees, depending on the board and problem setting).  The weaknesses that aren't, seem to require far less fun activities such as 4x4s and laps on easy routes - basically tedious mileage and learning how to rest.

In terms of identifiying specific weaknesses, asking people who see you climb is probably the simplest means.  I once did a "blind" Lattice assessment, essentially as part of a UKB "bet" about the power of the Lattice method.  Tom Randall tested me, and also asked people who knew me for their opinions on my strengths (ha!) and weaknesses.  He then did an assessment without Lattice's usual pre-knowledge of actual levels (although, I heard afterwards there were a few cheeky, informal enquiries). 

His views based on just seeing me climb were more accurate than the ones after lots of number crunching, and the opinions of friends were probably even more to-the-point (verging on contempt!).  Mind you, I was / am (wrist injury notwithstanding) a bit of a freak - and perhaps my defects are more visible (and yet less readily resolved by maths!).

Liamhutch89

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#11 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 15, 2021, 11:07:09 pm
I think that does make sense, but I do also think it's relatively tricky to actually know why you couldn't do the climb. Or rather; to correctly identify why, rather than misidentify. Are your fingers too weak? Or are you just bad at getting your weight on your toes? One may feel like the other. I think that's the hard part. Correctly working out what you are crap at.

In that example, the solution doesn't really require knowing which one is the weakness. Climb lots of stuff with small holds and it will train both.

Sure, but fingerboarding won't, for example. I just think it seems tricky to do in my (limited) experience, is all.

You're right, fingerboarding won't train both and that's why I specifically recommended lots of climbing on small holds. It trains more or less everything you need! (for bouldering at least).

Actually, fingerboarding might get you there anyway - i'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but as time goes on I further subscribe to the belief that hard bouldering is 90% finger strength and then the rest can share the remaining 10%... The correlation between my max hang score and max redpoint grade has been spookily strong over the last few years!

teestub

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#12 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 07:01:16 am
Actually, fingerboarding might get you there anyway - i'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but as time goes on I further subscribe to the belief that hard bouldering is 90% finger strength and then the rest can share the remaining 10%... The correlation between my max hang score and max redpoint grade has been spookily strong over the last few years!

This is your n=1 caused by (as iI understand) starting from a position of having a strong body and relatively weak fingers innit, your example of identifying your limiting factor.

You can easily imagine an alternative where someone’s starting position was strong fingers but weak arms, and their correlation between weighted pull up score and grade might become quite good!

Liamhutch89

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#13 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 08:54:23 am
Actually, fingerboarding might get you there anyway - i'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but as time goes on I further subscribe to the belief that hard bouldering is 90% finger strength and then the rest can share the remaining 10%... The correlation between my max hang score and max redpoint grade has been spookily strong over the last few years!

This is your n=1 caused by (as iI understand) starting from a position of having a strong body and relatively weak fingers innit, your example of identifying your limiting factor.

You can easily imagine an alternative where someone’s starting position was strong fingers but weak arms, and their correlation between weighted pull up score and grade might become quite good!

You're spot on for my case, but I think it holds true more often than not. Sure, there will be exceptions (in terms of individuals and specific boulder problems), but generally, finger strength appears to be the limiting factor, at least for climbers who I know. Those with stronger fingers than me usually climb harder, and those with weaker fingers usually climb less hard.

At the top level there's Giuliano Cameroni who bouldered 8C+ before he could do a one arm pullup. I bet every 8C+ ascensionist could hang an edge with one arm though! Consider an imaginary person who has never climbed before, and they have average athleticism, coordination, etc., but for some reason they can 1 arm a Lattice rung. I bet they could climb 8A within a year!

Maybe i'm way off on all this but i'm just saying what I see!

Note: i'm purposely sticking to bouldering here as I don't know anything about the territory that comes after 10 moves!

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#14 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 09:25:12 am
Actually, fingerboarding might get you there anyway - i'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but as time goes on I further subscribe to the belief that hard bouldering is 90% finger strength and then the rest can share the remaining 10%... The correlation between my max hang score and max redpoint grade has been spookily strong over the last few years!

This is your n=1 caused by (as iI understand) starting from a position of having a strong body and relatively weak fingers innit, your example of identifying your limiting factor.

You can easily imagine an alternative where someone’s starting position was strong fingers but weak arms, and their correlation between weighted pull up score and grade might become quite good!

You're spot on for my case, but I think it holds true more often than not. Sure, there will be exceptions (in terms of individuals and specific boulder problems), but generally, finger strength appears to be the limiting factor, at least for climbers who I know. Those with stronger fingers than me usually climb harder, and those with weaker fingers usually climb less hard.

At the top level there's Giuliano Cameroni who bouldered 8C+ before he could do a one arm pullup. I bet every 8C+ ascensionist could hang an edge with one arm though! Consider an imaginary person who has never climbed before, and they have average athleticism, coordination, etc., but for some reason they can 1 arm a Lattice rung. I bet they could climb 8A within a year!

Maybe i'm way off on all this but i'm just saying what I see!

Note: i'm purposely sticking to bouldering here as I don't know anything about the territory that comes after 10 moves!

Conversely, there are a lot of people who can hang tiny edges with big weights, yet they can only get up mid 7s  :-\

teestub

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#15 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 09:32:47 am

You're spot on for my case, but I think it holds true more often than not. Sure, there will be exceptions (in terms of individuals and specific boulder problems), but generally, finger strength appears to be the limiting factor, at least for climbers who I know. Those with stronger fingers than me usually climb harder, and those with weaker fingers usually climb less hard.


I think this is somewhat confusing fingerstrength generally correlating well with bouldering grade, and fingerstrength being something being concentrated on above a lot of other things, which is more frequently leading to the situation Fultonius alludes to. You then end up in a feedback loop where people are like ‘well I still can’t climb X so my fingers must still be too weak’.

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#16 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 09:38:08 am
You can provide lattice with your data here: https://latticetraining.com/my-fingers/

Apparently I am much weaker than expected to be climbing 7b or V4 with my 116% bodyweight finger strength. Discussion amongst friends (not all grey power candidates) suggests this is a common report. I think the lattice sample population must be biased towards inexperienced training fanatics who are over-strong for their grade. Or peak lime denizens. Or perhaps it is commercially useful to overestimate the finger strength required as writing an "individualised" fingerboarding programme to address this weakness must take about 3 seconds! ( ;) )

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#17 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 11:02:28 am
Conversely, there are a lot of people who can hang tiny edges with big weights, yet they can only get up mid 7s  :-\

If what you say is true then what i'm saying is clearly wrong, but i'm yet to see anyone 1 arm a lattice rung and then max out at 7B on rock. Are there really lots of people who can do this?

Liamhutch89

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#18 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 11:17:13 am
You can provide lattice with your data here: https://latticetraining.com/my-fingers/

Apparently I am much weaker than expected to be climbing 7b or V4 with my 116% bodyweight finger strength. Discussion amongst friends (not all grey power candidates) suggests this is a common report. I think the lattice sample population must be biased towards inexperienced training fanatics who are over-strong for their grade. Or peak lime denizens. Or perhaps it is commercially useful to overestimate the finger strength required as writing an "individualised" fingerboarding programme to address this weakness must take about 3 seconds! ( ;) )

I like the cynicism  ;D. I also fall short in terms of finger strength according to Lattice, but that's kind of my point: it's seldom the other way round (at least i've not heard anyone admit to it...). With sufficient cunning you can usually trick your way up something harder than your fingers allow for (particularly on grit), but i've seen people with strong fingers campus up problems where I had to use every trick in the book!

Wellsy

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#19 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 11:43:30 am
I can definitely at least 20kgs added weight on my base weight of 75kgs on a 20mm edge for 7 seconds and 7A is my max outdoor bouldering grade. I dunno what that means at all though.

(The last time I was fingerboarding hard I got to 18kgs added weight on a 10mm edge for ten seconds as my max that I was comfortable going for, so like 95%, and got to eight reps of that in a session)

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#20 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 11:55:19 am
18kgs added weight on a 10mm edge for ten seconds

That's insanely strong for only font 7A.

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#21 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 12:25:24 pm
As always, context needs to be applied though. IIRC wellsy has been climbing outside for ~1 year or something.

I find climbing a circuit of problems at the climbing wall, and paying attention to the things my ego tells me to avoid gives me some idea what my weaknesses are.

Wellsy

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#22 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 12:30:57 pm
Yes about a year outdoors and two years in total.

Ah that's a good idea though, your weaknesses are probably involving problems you look at and don't really like the idea of. Although, I love steep power problems and never noticed my weakness in generating that forearm power, so not always maybe?

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#23 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 12:45:25 pm

If what you say is true then what i'm saying is clearly wrong, but i'm yet to see anyone 1 arm a lattice rung and then max out at 7B on rock. Are there really lots of people who can do this?

I do have a friend who is *insanely* strong in metrics, but performs poorly on rock. He's hanging with weight one-armed on the Lattice edge (I think his predicted potential was ~8B/+ form fingers alone) and goodness knows how many one-arm pull-ups he can do/what weight he can pull, BUT has maxed out at 7B+ on rock. Technique is appalling, like it is painful to watch him climb. Like feet don't exist. Interestingly, this also applies to board climbing, he maxes out on the Moon board at about 7B I think.

Paul B

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#24 Re: Identifying Weaknesses
July 16, 2021, 12:55:18 pm
I think trying to work efficiency once you're overly strong is particularly tricky; firstly it takes a toll mentally but if you're physically able, it's really hard to stop yourself 'over-powering' something etc.

I'm sure Dave Mac wrote something about potential bias in things such as the lattice dataset.


 

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