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The Manx Missile (Read 6999 times)

DAVETHOMAS90

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The Manx Missile
July 09, 2021, 05:36:36 pm
This is of course, massive:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/57725179

 :boxing:  :beer2:

At 36 too. Amazing.

sxrxg

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#1 Re: The Manx Missile
July 09, 2021, 05:51:56 pm
Don't think his age is the most amazing thing... Epstein Barr virus, depression, considered retirement as had no team at the end of last year, bought a place on the quickstep team by bringing a sponsor. Not expected to ever ride the tour again, first wins in a couple of years at second string tour of turkey race. Only got a chance this year due to team mates injury and proving himself at the tour of Belgium just before the tour.

I hope he wins in green in Paris and announces his retirement going out on his own terms. Truly the best sprinter ever.

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#2 Re: The Manx Missile
July 09, 2021, 07:13:36 pm
That was clickbait Dave!!!
 ;D

Johnny Brown

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#3 Re: The Manx Missile
July 09, 2021, 07:18:47 pm
Amazing, yeah, it's been a great watch so far and the final week looks like classic.

webbo

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#4 Re: The Manx Missile
July 09, 2021, 08:29:10 pm
Don't think his age is the most amazing thing... Epstein Barr virus, depression, considered retirement as had no team at the end of last year, bought a place on the quickstep team by bringing a sponsor. Not expected to ever ride the tour again, first wins in a couple of years at second string tour of turkey race. Only got a chance this year due to team mates injury and proving himself at the tour of Belgium just before the tour.

I hope he wins in green in Paris and announces his retirement going out on his own terms. Truly the best sprinter ever.
The most amazing thing as Cav himself has said is how the team have complete faith in him to deliver. This is a team stacked with winners including the world champion who are prepared to ride their guts out to get him to the last 150 metres. Chris Boardman reckoned that on stage three after Morkov pulled off Cav had only to do 15 pedal revs to cross the line.
He did say they were the 15 most important pedal revs on the stage however.

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#5 Re: The Manx Missile
July 09, 2021, 08:39:36 pm
Amazing, yeah, it's been a great watch so far and the final week looks like classic.

Incredible stuff, the highlight of a very entertaining tour despite the lack of drama in the GC. 

If you'd written the script for Cavendish's comeback it would have been thrown out as too far-fetched, As said above, best sprinter ever - the next best for 'mass finish' TDF stage wins is 22!

DAVETHOMAS90

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#6 Re: The Manx Missile
July 09, 2021, 09:34:05 pm
Epstein Barr virus, depression, considered retirement as had no team at the end of last year, bought a place on the quickstep team by bringing a sponsor. Not expected to ever ride the tour again..

I hope he wins in green in Paris and announces his retirement going out on his own terms. Truly the best sprinter ever.

The most amazing thing as Cav himself has said is how the team have complete faith in him to deliver.

Yes, absolutely. You can only imagine how that team are feeling now.

A little more drama in this one, especially Cav's reaction. Fantastic.



I hope the link still works.
https://youtube.com/c/LeTourDeFrance

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#7 Re: The Manx Missile
July 10, 2021, 08:50:15 am

The most amazing thing as Cav himself has said is how the team have complete faith in him to deliver. This is a team stacked with winners including the world champion who are prepared to ride their guts out to get him to the last 150 metres. Chris Boardman reckoned that on stage three after Morkov pulled off Cav had only to do 15 pedal revs to cross the line.
He did say they were the 15 most important pedal revs on the stage however.

It looked like Mørkøv could have easily taken the win yesterday, can’t imagine how well that would have gone down 😂

Paul B

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#8 Re: The Manx Missile
July 10, 2021, 12:36:43 pm
Any chance this thread can be renamed? It appearing on a sprint finish day is a bit of a spoiler!

On topic, I love how honest his interviews are.

sxrxg

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#9 Re: The Manx Missile
July 10, 2021, 10:27:58 pm

The most amazing thing as Cav himself has said is how the team have complete faith in him to deliver. This is a team stacked with winners including the world champion who are prepared to ride their guts out to get him to the last 150 metres. Chris Boardman reckoned that on stage three after Morkov pulled off Cav had only to do 15 pedal revs to cross the line.
He did say they were the 15 most important pedal revs on the stage however.

It looked like Mørkøv could have easily taken the win yesterday, can’t imagine how well that would have gone down 😂

Morkov is so good, just look at the sprinters that have been serial winners when on a team with him... Viviani, Bennett, Kristoff. Non have really done much else without him. I don't think it diminishes Cav's achievement this tour though. He still has to be fast and he has also won by coming off Morkov's wheel and using his racing experience to pick the right wheels.

webbo

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#10 Re: The Manx Missile
July 10, 2021, 10:39:05 pm
Since 2008 when Cav won his first tour stage to today. French riders have won 40 stages Germany 36 Cav 34 then the next nation is about 18.
He needs to keep going till at least he has more than Germany. :lol:

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#11 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 05:51:42 pm
Huge cycling fan, ex 2nd cat chopper and all round lover of bikes. Generally one to turn a blind eye but professional sports is in a suspicious place at the moment. Records are being broken in athletics that have stood since before epo testing was possible. Cyclists are are putting out power (well, if they'd release their data...) the likes of which are surprising to even strongest guys, and sprinters you've seen drop off form and disappear from the sport to a degree you'd almost call them past it suddenly beat everyone in the peleton.

If (and I hope it is but not naive) all legit then we're witnessing a significant jump forward in human performance.
All interestingly after a period of reduced wada testing due to covid travel restrictions...

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#12 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 06:39:37 pm
In athletics there's at least the (partial) explanation of the new generation shoes -  2-6% benefits in oxygen costs etc for running... with cycling, not so....

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#13 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 06:51:19 pm
In athletics there's at least the (partial) explanation of the new generation shoes -  2-6% benefits in oxygen costs etc for running... with cycling, not so....

We don't know how good the spikes are at the moment, 2-4% was about the range for the road shoes. I don't think that would account for all of the leaps we're seeing though... Plus they're happening in some of throwing events too. Ah well.

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#14 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 07:11:21 pm
In athletics there's at least the (partial) explanation of the new generation shoes -  2-6% benefits in oxygen costs etc for running... with cycling, not so....

We don't know how good the spikes are at the moment, 2-4% was about the range for the road shoes. I don't think that would account for all of the leaps we're seeing though... Plus they're happening in some of throwing events too. Ah well.

True...some cycling tweeters and podcasters I follow have been alluding to the "peloton of two speeds" that they saw in the EPO era - before it was tested for.

Stabbsy

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#15 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 08:09:40 pm
Huge cycling fan, ex 2nd cat chopper and all round lover of bikes. Generally one to turn a blind eye but professional sports is in a suspicious place at the moment. Records are being broken in athletics that have stood since before epo testing was possible. Cyclists are are putting out power (well, if they'd release their data...) the likes of which are surprising to even strongest guys, and sprinters you've seen drop off form and disappear from the sport to a degree you'd almost call them past it suddenly beat everyone in the peleton.

If (and I hope it is but not naive) all legit then we're witnessing a significant jump forward in human performance.
All interestingly after a period of reduced wada testing due to covid travel restrictions...

Pretty much word for word as discussed in the latest Science of Sport podcast. Well worth a listen.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/id1461719225?i=1000528340757

Not only Pogacar and others at the TdF, but also recent women’s 10k records really make me suspicious. Given the 10k record was held by a Chinese runner well known to be drug assisted, then broken by an Ethiopian, Ayana, after no-one could get near it for 20 years. Then it gets smashed twice in a few days. Sadly I don’t think the spikes explain it on their own.

DAVETHOMAS90

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#16 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 08:20:34 pm
This was intended (hoped) to be a thread celebrating Cav's outstanding efforts  :2thumbsup:


I know there are pitfalls of believing in what you see. Perhaps it's naive to be that way, or just living in hope, but for now, I'm enjoying his glory.
Can we have another thread on outliers please?

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#17 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 09:36:31 pm
I'm not convinced by Pogacar at all. The sports scientist can bang on about special mitochondria all he likes but I don't think it explains 5 minutes up on almost everyone at the first rest day.

Cav is different I think since he isn't racing against the cream of road sprinting. If Ewan was there things might be very different - but you can only race against what turns up.

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#18 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 09:36:52 pm
Can we have another thread on outliers please?

 :agree:

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#19 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 09:58:40 pm
Strongly agree with Will. I’ve followed the season pretty closely this year, more so than usual. I think Cavendish has hit his peak perfectly. On top of that he’ got Morkov, who could arguably have won 3 out of 4 of the stages he has, leading him to the line amongst the best lead out train by far. Ewan, Sagan, Mellier, Bouhani all out. Philipsens lead out train is decimated and Van Aert can’t make up his mind what he wants to do this tour.

I believe in MVDPs performances as I do for Van Aert. They come from an aspect of the sport where wattage is king and I imagine sitting in the peloton all day is a piece of cake, ready to turn it up when they need to.

As for Pogacar. Liege Bastogne Leige to fronting the tour seems unbelievable but where is his competition this year. It was always going to be Pogacar vs Roglic. Ineos are a dud, Movistar almost redundant. Astanas leader rode the Giro…

I think on both counts the stars have aligned for both of them.

But still to take a full 5 minutes out of Carapraz. Hmmm

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#20 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 10:05:08 pm
Although I have had my doubts about Pogacar, I am not convinced on how well Carapraz is riding, he can’t get rid of Uran for a start and Uran to me has never looked like he was going to win a grand tour.

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#21 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 10:24:23 pm
The way this Tour has turned out, Pog could have easily still won without the exceptional early performances that have raised the eyebrows. I think that he’s racing against a much depleted field makes him stick out even more.

Cav’s performances aren’t raising any eyebrows for me really, as had been said, there’s not really any pure sprinters with a similar team behind them to compete against him.

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#22 Re: The Manx Missile
July 11, 2021, 10:37:10 pm
Can you have any serious conversation about success in cycling without a nod to doping?

Like it or not, Cav is an outlier - he’s won bunch sprint stages at the TdF over a 13 year period. Look at some of his peers - Greipel, Kittel, Sagan - all won their stages over half that timeframe. Given what’s required to win a bunch sprint (massive power output over a very short period, something suited to younger riders), it makes sense to ask the question how/why is Cav different - particularly given cycling’s murky past.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a massive Cavendish fanboy and have been since the first stage win in 2008. I was in Webbo’s camp of “bit of dust in my eye” when he won his first stage this year. However, I don’t want to sit there with my fingers in my ears and not recognise that there’s a risk that it’s all too good to be true.

There is a plausible story as to why he disappeared from the front of the peloton and then reappeared. There’s also Will’s point about who he’s been up against - certainly for his later wins in this Tour, although the first 2 were against strong opposition with the exception of Ewan as Demare, Bouhanni and Merlier didn’t pull out until later. I hope that is the whole story and there’s nothing else.

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#23 Re: The Manx Missile
July 12, 2021, 09:21:24 am
Maybe clean racing has started to out perform the Spanish beef beasts of the past.
Maybe personalised pillows and coloured coded drinks bottles are the marginal gains that make a difference and the likes of Rasmussen asking for only one coat of paint on his bike was the wrong sort of marginal gain...

Or maybe they've all been on it all the time.

Still it's been great to see Cav's return to winning and fingers crossed for one more.

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#24 Re: The Manx Missile
July 12, 2021, 10:29:04 am
 :blink:
Although I have had my doubts about Pogacar, I am not convinced on how well Carapraz is riding, he can’t get rid of Uran for a start and Uran to me has never looked like he was going to win a grand tour.

I think with a bit of luck Uran could easily have won a grand tour as he was close a few times. Three second places on his record and all it took was a bit of bad luck for a leader or a doping disqualification and he would have won one. Almost with the very best as a climber, excellent on multi-stage time trials and very attentive and canny.

https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/rigoberto-uran

On the subject of the doping accusations, for Pogacar they talked to an exercise specialist on one of the context setting sections who pointed out he has always had elite stats  from when he was first discovered and his performance stats in this tour are pretty normal for him, but he is lucky the opposition this year are below par on their detailed stats. On Cav, the sprint opposition is a lot weaker than normal this year and he has by far the best sprint support team. He is only in the race as Bennett was pulled out just before the start.

Cycling to me will take a long time to recover from the awful Armstrong era but let's not forget the doctors looking after the cheating cycling stars also had big name footballers and tennis stars on their client list and mysteriously those stones never got turned. I think anything in sport with big money has drug cheating involved to some extent.

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#25 Re: The Manx Missile
July 12, 2021, 11:27:39 am
So Uran needs to be lucky to win. Which was my point really I don’t think he’s got it to make the top step without others crashing, getting ill or having mechanicals.

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#26 Re: The Manx Missile
July 12, 2021, 12:38:31 pm
On the doping, I have some some reasons to think this time it might be different.

It seems strange to say for such an established sport as cycling, till now, it has been luddite in its approach to training. Previously cyclists did 1000s miles of a year with very little structured training - indeed much of the training was through racing. The doping in the peloton may well have delayed the transition to purposeful training, as the effects of doping masked the marginal effects of structured training. The only cyclists who did structured training (i.e. short intervals) were track cyclists - however the transition from (probably clean) track racing to (doped) road cycling was nigh on impossible without doping. Obree's autobiography illustrates this very well.

It is by no accident that the new wave of cyclists come from a cyclocross background. The intensity of cyclocross racing is off the scale, the training involves lots of intervals, it is a full body workout - running, core, bike handling. It is to road riding what bouldering is to routes - an accelerated training simulator. Zwift has now not only brought intervals to the masses but also to the top end.

I predict, the next wave of cyclists will be pale shadows coming out of garages and man caves. Again, Obree was decades ahead of the curve with his dedication to turbo training. 
 

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#27 Re: The Manx Missile
July 12, 2021, 12:55:47 pm
There's a piece in the Guardian on the new generation of cyclocross trained racers, blowing traditional tactics apart:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/jul/11/cyclo-cross-alaphilippe-van-der-poel-van-aert-tour-de-france-cycling

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#28 Re: The Manx Missile
July 12, 2021, 01:27:00 pm
So Uran needs to be lucky to win. Which was my point really I don’t think he’s got it to make the top step without others crashing, getting ill or having mechanicals.

The winners all had their own share of luck as well as ability. A few who did win seem to me to be no better than Uran: Aru and especially Geoghan-Hart spring to mind.

On the subject of luck, watching the Tour this year was pretty shocking for the first week. I really think they need to review a whole series of factors to cut peloton crash risks, and so far they have only really belated made a few sensible minor adjustments. In particular having a neutralised time on a good bit of road, typically further out than 3km, seems very important with the increasing fashion of GC teams staying up front to keep their leader safe (mix that with a complex finish before 3km and risks get very high).

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#29 Re: The Manx Missile
July 18, 2021, 09:07:31 am
I hope Cav bags the record today.  He seems to have always been a bit of an anomaly,  his performance exceeding his numbers and having an atypical body type for a sprinter according to articles I've read. 

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#30 Re: The Manx Missile
July 18, 2021, 01:39:56 pm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/18/comeback-kid-mark-cavendish-poised-to-join-tour-de-france-immortals

I thought Merckx comments earlier were ill judged - "We don't compare.." etc, referring Cavendish winning stages with only the last 6 seconds on the front etc.

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#31 Re: The Manx Missile
July 18, 2021, 02:12:21 pm
Merckx does have a point though right, his stage wins came in a lot shorter period, and also involved winning the GC at the same time. What Cav has achieved is remarkable, particularly his longevity obviously.

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#32 Re: The Manx Missile
July 18, 2021, 06:08:04 pm
13km to go!

Yes, he does, and Cav doesn't want the comparison.
To take anything away from his achievements would be wrong though, and yes, amazing to have been able to step up again.

I hope he doesn't put too much emphasis on getting number 35 today.

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#33 Re: The Manx Missile
July 19, 2021, 07:41:40 am
A bit of a shame for Cav. Made a mistake leaving Mørkøv's wheel and then found himself penned in by a couple of Belgiums.

Maybe the result was a bit of karma for his behaviour towards a mechanic the other day.

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#34 Re: The Manx Missile
July 19, 2021, 09:46:39 am
I think Cav from a few years ago would have taken that small gap down the barrier with his elbows out, but reckon he made the best decision yesterday! Would have been interesting to see the result if he’d stayed with his man, Jumbo Visma looked fast.

Big up to Van Aert too, Ventoux, TT and Champs is a hell of a Tour.

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#35 Re: The Manx Missile
July 19, 2021, 11:06:13 am
No icing on the cake, but it's a pretty spectacular cake. In fact, I'd say we've got a well iced cake but without the sprinkles.

 

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