[jwi]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQgOHQAD37B/

Sébastien Berthe, who repeated a ton of the hardest multipitch routes of Europe together with Nico Favresse last summer, has posted a long complaint about the grades of the crux pitches. His argument is basically that the grades seem to be about the same as on single pitch routes up to and including the seventh grade, but that the grades on multipitch routes diverges quite a lot from normal grades in the 8ths.

I am not surprised that he feels that way, because extraordinarily talented as he is, I have seen him on technical vertical routes in Céüse and other places and I was quite surprised that he flashed multiple 8bs days on end in the same style on long routes. Apparently Mr. Berthe felt the same, and felt it was necessary to bring this up.

For those who does not have instagram:

(quotes lightly edited for spelling and clarity, because I cannot help myself)

Imbalance in the grades in multipitch climbing?


In this post, I'd like to open the discussion about the grades in hard multipitch routes. What I'm going to write here is not intended to hurt or shock anyone. I'd just like to share my honest opinion on an issue that has been bothering me for a while...

Indeed, I think most of the benchmark hard multipitch routes that I've tried in Europe are overgraded, especially for the pitches graded 8a and above. Silbergeier and Headless children in Ratikon, Kaizers Neue Kleider in Wilder Kaizer, End of Silence, La Voie Petit on Grand Capucin, Odyssée on the Eiger North Face, Carnet D'adresse in Rocher du midi, Tarrago in Montserrat, Bellavista and even the last one I tried: The Fly in Lauterbrunnen... In my opinion, all of these routes would deserve one grade less.

For example, the three crux pitches of The Fly, initially graded 8b, 8c and 8b+ felt more like 8a, soft 8b+ and 8b to me. Don't take me wrong: just because these grades are incorrect does not mean that the route is easy. All these routes are freaking hard and I consider sending these as an amazing performance. It's just a matter of readjusting the scales: sending 8a after a full day of technical, exposed and sustained climbing remains an incredibly though challenge!

For me pitches should be graded as if they were on the ground: it has always been the case for pitches in the 7th grade or easier multipitch, why wouldn't it be applicable for the 8th grade pitches?
When I am single-pitch climbing, it is quite a big deal for me to send 8b+ in a day, but in multipitch, I've climbed multiple 8b+ in a day and a dozen of sustained technical pitches... 🤔

It is hard to grade a multipitch. I imagine how difficult these routes must have been for the first ascensionist and their work is really impressive: finding the line, bolting, hoping it goes free, loose rock, no chalk, no beta, doubts, and eventually the send. After such a process, I guess it is really challenging to have sufficient hindsight for an objective opinion. It's the role of repeaters to adjust the grade.

Grades are important! As climbers, we've the duty to give most honest and accurate assessment possible!

Replies by some luminaries:

I think Silbergeier Kaisers neue Kleider and many others are on point. [...] Bellavista is easier that‘s right, but it got already down graded. To me the easy pitches and the hard ones especially on the trilogy felt harder than most of the same grades I have climbed in sport climbing. [...] Maybe it is because you are f... strong!!!

On theses routes I only know 2, on the Grand Capucin and Silbergeier, I completely agree with 8a+ in Grand Cap, but I had the feeling 8b+ was fine for Silbergeier. And on a general idea, I agree, I have done overgraded hard multipitches many times, Camilotto Pellissier is an obvious example.

I had the same feeling as you after many multipitch routes I did in the past years. A good example from your list is Headless Children. How can it be that so many strong climbers who climb much harder than 8b and have a feeling for this grade did this route and said nothing about the grade? In this case @yannick_glatthard, @nicofavresse, me and you freed the route the same day. For all of us it was obvious that the crux pitch is definitely 8a and not 8b. That's a big difference.

I know many more examples for multipitch routes between 8a and 8b+. Only with Silbergeier I can't agree with you. So the argument that you're extremely strong in this technical style is true 😉.

I think the issue you address here is really important and its good to talk about that. I heard many times that “it's stupid to talk about grades and grades are not so important”. Thats not true, grades are important! [...] The biggest pleasure I have is when I climb on my limit, therefore an accurate grading is important.

I agree with your sentiment, the individual pitch grades shouldn’t be affected, however an overall grade could be given as it doesn’t accurately portray the difficulty of the whole climb to just give it a single grade for the hardest pitch. Recently I attempted “Long Hope Direct”, the crux is 8b on trad gear and the rest of the 400m below is nothing harder than 6c, but it’s way harder than most of the big hard alpine rock routes I’ve done in the Alps.

I do disagree with your opinion on which routes need downgraded haha Bellavista for sure, the crux pitch felt about 8b. Also Projext Fear which shares the panorama second crux (8c), that felt 8a/+ to me. But for me der Kaiser, eofs and Silbergeier felt spot on. I’ve climbed a lot at the grade range and didn’t think they were soft by any stretch of the imagination (maybe EofS crux is 8b, but the rest was spot on). Saying that, grades are subjective and you do climb 9a+ (or harder) so your estimations are more likely to be out than someone who climbs nearer that grade in my opinion (such as me whose hardest grade is nearer the max on these big multipitches)

[Ged]

Person spends days and days and days cleaning, bolting, working and eventually redponting a line, and is out by a grade or two. Not that surprising is it?

In the past I would've paid more attention to this, but having done a fair bit of new bolted routes myself recently, I think it's just so hard to stick a grade on it when you've been so involved with it. The only thing that sorts it is lots of Repeats. Surely big hard multi pitch routes are going to receive very few repeats, so there'll be very little grade haggling going on.

[jwi]

obviously. A lot of the routes in the seventh grade gets downgraded over time as they get plenty of repeats

[Ged]

I just don't really get his point, as you say, it's a bit obvious. What debate is he hoping to start?

[Will Hunt]

I just don't really get his point, as you say, it's a bit obvious. What debate is he hoping to start?

Is the point not that he can't see how this has happened, but that he wants more repeaters to speak up in a meaningful way and for people to pay attention to those repeaters and for the grade to be adjusted - whether that be in a book or an online database.

I don't know the hard Euro multi-pitching scene at all. Is it full of routes that everyone knows are soft and people who put big numbers on their spray anyway?

[knollchri]

I don't know the hard Euro multi-pitching scene at all. Is it full of routes that everyone knows are soft and people who put big numbers on their spray anyway?

Personally, I cannot speak for routes in the range of >8b; so most of it is second-hand knowledge and not about the trilogy per se. Anyway, yes it is pretty obvious that there is quite some uncertainty in the initial grade-suggestions and there are definitely both ends of the spectrum out there: going from super-soft to pretty stiff grading. Also, given that there are relatively few repetitions of harder routes, it often takes some while for the grades to settle.

But there are some routes out there where it is more or less general knowledge that they are significantly easier than suggested by the grade; yet most are happy to take the big grade and make the news, and only very few speak out openly.

[jwi]

Some of these routes have are quite old and have had 20-30 repeats or more. You would have thought that someone would have said something.

Anyway I find it interesting, because I know what kind of level is required on single pitch routes to ground-up a classic multipitch route with a bunch of pitches in the mid sevens in a day, and I have been surprised at the speed some climbers that I, by extrapolation, assumed did not have the required level on single-pitches managed to get up hard multipitch routes. The cynic in me just assumed that climbers lacking the required level just pulled on a draw here and there, but if the grades are out by as as much as Berthe says  they might actually have done the routes 🤷🏼‍♂️

[BD]

Person spends days and days and days cleaning, bolting, working and eventually redponting a line, and is out by a grade or two. Not that surprising is it? 

not really, but you would expect an equal amount of over vs undergrading on routes, with the correct grade being somewhere in the middle? His comment was mainly for the harder multipitch routes which all seem to be overgraded.

I do find it funny to see how over graded routes are being called out, but sandbagged routes usually keep their grade 'for historic reasons'. Their grading might be related to the era in which they were put up but it makes comparing slightly more difficult. I know of 6c's which are approaching 7b and 7b's which are rumored to be 8a.
His comment was mostly for the harder multipitch routes so I can't judge for those.

To put his comment in perspective:
-as babsi zangerl mentioned: Seb is a very strong guy.
-being from belgium myself, I can also see how he would feel very comfortable on most of the trilogy limestone routes. They resemble our sport crags (which are known to be hard for the grade) in style. Comparing to those routes, I bet he's right about his grades but his reference might be different than others.

[knollchri]

Some of these routes have are quite old and have had 20-30 repeats or more. You would have thought that someone would have said something.

It's not a new topic tough. The late Harald Berger discussed this grading dilemma already in 2004 after repeating the trilogy.

His comment boiled down to the observation that the overall experience (i.e., number of hard pitches, exposure, approach, ...) is likely part of the grading. He also stated that it usually took him around the same number of days to redpoint a single-pitch 8b+ as these 8b+ multipitches...

[duncan]

His comment boiled down to the observation that the overall experience (i.e., number of hard pitches, exposure, approach, ...) is likely part of the grading. He also stated that it usually took him around the same number of days to redpoint a single-pitch 8b+ as these 8b+ multipitches...

It’s almost like you need a grade for the overall difficulty of the route, taking into account factors other than physical difficulty, in addition to the individual pitch grade. Now where have I heard of something like that…?!

I have no idea about the harder routes but I’m sure I recall Dave Macleod and/or Robbie Phillips thought the Tre Cima routes were overgraded. On the other hand, moderate routes from the 80s and 90s can be full value for their grades. A Kaspar Ochsner 6c from 1992 is calibrated like a John Allen HVS 6a from 1986.

[jwi]

It’s almost like you need a grade for the overall difficulty of the route, taking into account factors other than physical difficulty, in addition to the individual pitch grade. Now where have I heard of something like that…?!

The French are indeed on their way to reinvent the overall grade to something similar to the UK adjective grade system. ABO appeared already 60 years ago and is still the top grade, but more and more people are describing routes as ED, with numbers attached. So the scale goes: F, PD, AD, D, TD, ED1, ED2, ED3, ... etc. Now where have we seen that before, with the same adjectives attached ....

[jwi]

Some of these routes have are quite old and have had 20-30 repeats or more. You would have thought that someone would have said something.

It's not a new topic tough. The late Harald Berger discussed this grading dilemma already in 2004 after repeating the trilogy.

His comment boiled down to the observation that the overall experience (i.e., number of hard pitches, exposure, approach, ...) is likely part of the grading. He also stated that it usually took him around the same number of days to redpoint a single-pitch 8b+ as these 8b+ multipitches...

But on a Mussato 7c pitch I would expect the climbing to be of the same difficulty as a 7c on a Provençal single pitch crag, and as Duncan said, anyone who tries an Ochsner 7a with the expectation that the grade is generous since it is on a multi-pitch route is likely to be disappointed. Why should the rules be different in the 8th grade?
 

[knollchri]

But on a Mussato 7c pitch I would expect the climbing to be of the same difficulty as a 7c on a Provençal single pitch crag, and as Duncan said, anyone who tries an Ochsner 7a with the expectation that the grade is generous since it is on a multi-pitch route is likely to be disappointed. Why should the rules be different in the 8th grade?

In my opinion, there is really no reason why the grading scheme should change anywhere. But then, an honest  discussion can only be left to those that have actually climbed the routes.
I have the feeling (but I might be wrong) that climbers were more open to such discussions in the past. Nowadays, everything has to fit into one instagram-post, ideally with one big number next to it...

[BD]

To confirm my own explanation:

-being from belgium myself, I can also see how he would feel very comfortable on most of the trilogy limestone routes. They resemble our sport crags (which are known to be hard for the grade) in style. Comparing to those routes, I bet he's right about his grades but his reference might be different than others.

Here is a recent video of the man himself explaining it. As if Sebastien knew it was being discussed here:
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQv61cUDjn8/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

I think this video is all the explanation you need for this topic.

btw: the real question is not "what has he ever done on grit", but "what has he ever done in Freyr".

[Johnny Brown]

I don't climb at this standard but I have photographed early repeats of a couple of these routes - Voie Petit and Longhope. On both the chat was similar to the above - the crux pitch is a grade or two easier than stated, but only as a single pitch. But they aren't single pitches and you can't easily separate the climbing from the getting to the climbing. On both occasions there was a fair bit of big talk about a similar downgrade that settled down to 'take the grade and let the speed of the repeat do the talking'. I think it's easy for downgrading to seem like petty one-upmanship (or it to be rapidly spun that way by the media), especially when you haven't had the vision to open the route or put in the often huge effort to create it. So not downgrading I see also as something of a nod of respect to the FA. But inevitably that will be less of a consideration as time goes on.

On the long drive back from Hoy we had plenty of time for these discussions. I also got a deeper insight into Caff's personality. I'd just signed up a Spotify premium subscription but there was no data on Hoy, so we'd had my cached music all week. Back on the mainland we had 3G and I asked for requests.
'What have you got?' asked Caff.
I explained I had pretty much anything. This was a concept he had some trouble grasping.
'Literally anything you like except The Beatles or Zeppelin. Come on, what would you most like to hear right now?'
Long pause.
'Err, you wouldn't happen to have any Bee Gees would you?'

[mrjonathanr]

Staying Alive, presumably.

[Fultonius]

Admittedly, I've not climbed on anything above the low 7s in the mountains, but I have always wondered about the upper echelons of multipitch.

There has always been grade compression and expansion at different parts of the scale in different venues. Piolet 6b anyone?

I guess the question is....does it matter?  There is some logic in grading an 8a multipitch appropriately so that a well rounded 8a climber who has alpine experience will have a reasonable chance of success on it? So long as there's no wild grade variation on a certain crag etc. If so, the hardest single pitch would maybe only warrant 7c on the ground. Does this matter? There's no international yardstick you can "take with you" to calibrate the grade...

Does give me some hope that some of the grand cap routes aren't totally out of the question....

[Paul B]

There is some logic in grading an 8a multipitch appropriately so that a well rounded 8a climber who has alpine experience will have a reasonable chance of success on it?

Replace 8a in this statement with any grade and it'll hold true. If there's no consistency (I know, I know  ) on how grading is applied throughout the range then how on earth do you make an assessment from far away? Am I doing it based on the fact that I'm climbing grade X at the local crag fairly consistently or am I basing it on the fact that I'm pretty certain after climbing several other routes at the crag I can smash out grade X (or at least haul my ass between the gear if needs be)?

I have to admit I've been confused in the past by seeing 'at the crag' performances of people who've just ticked much harder MP routes abroad which has led me to suspect that grading is applied somewhat differently.

[Johnny Brown]

I find french grades baffling tbh, mainly because my only experience of them is limestone, mainly peak, and I climb 2 or 3 grades harder on granite anyway. I can always surprise people with how shit I am on peak lime compared to my lifelist.

[El Mocho]

There is some logic in grading an 8a multipitch appropriately so that a well rounded 8a climber who has alpine experience will have a reasonable chance of success on it?

I guess we already do this for UK stuff, the Long Hope being an example already given. Crux pitch on it's own would be E9? but the route as a whole gets E10. We onsighted everything up to there, I'm pretty sure Dave Mac may have had a previous attempt getting to there but they won't have been dialled. Essentially you are getting to that point tired, brain a little fried already, sore feet etc. The route as a whole is comparable to rping/onsighting a single pitch E10. If you gave me a choice of doing Parthian or just the crux pitch of longhope I know which I would prefer.

From my not huge experience of US multi pitch I don't feel they do the same, the 5.12 crux pitch of a long route will more often feel the same as a 5.12 single pitch. There have been exceptions but the 2 I can think of have now been down graded (Huber variation on Freerider used to get 5.13a, it's now 12d and is harder since hold breakage, the crux layback on Moonlight used to get 13a and was def soft, now 12d I think)

I think the UK grading system lends itself to an overall grade as that is what an E grade does already. Doing the whole Longhope is E10. The US and French grades are just the physical difficulty of the climbing (and many of the Euro multipitch routes, in the high 8s, are bolted) so it is maybe a bigger/more controversial step to grade the whole route rather than the individual pitches and it is also weird on the topo to have a pitch graded 8a which is actually 7c, in the uk we tend to only give tech grades of individual pitches rather than E grades for each pitch and even with our system we get to argue about it a bunch.

The two 8 pitches on the Voie Petit are soft, most of the mid 7 pitches are not. The 8s had lots of bolts, the mid 7s fewer. It's a cool route. What I remember most about it was Caff giving me a running commentary on his shit half way up "best view I've ever had whilst shitting..." etc and that it was less good than Gulliver's.

Grades ehh. When we are young and on the way up we like to talk about them being soft, when we are just past it we like to find the youth overgrading and slap them down, now I don't give a fuck. Any soft touches come my way and I'm going to take them.

any new routes or boulders I do I am obviously gonna sandbag to fuck

[MischaHY]

Interesting one this as I've only climbed multis up to 7c+ in various countries but they've always been on the money. 

That being said I have realised that depending on who made the first ascent, a single hard boulder sequence in the middle of more standard 'terrain' does tend to end up with a screwy grade if the person who did the first ascent is someone who typically does just that - first ascents of long routes.

In Sardinia for example we climbed a route called 'Legitimo Bastardo' (brilliant name) which gets 7c. We had to bail at the 5th pitch due to a totally rotten belay (pic below) but up to there climbed 6b+, 7c, 7a+, 7a+.  The 7c felt easier to me than both the following 7a+ due to the fact that the crux of the thing was simply pulling hard on some good edges whereas up above was pure wobbly runout tech climbing and much more insecure. I probably wouldn't have been mad if it said something more like 7b+, 7b, 7b.

However I must say I agree that 'overall' grades have no place in fully bolted multis. The grade is the grade and that's pretty much it. In the mountains it's often the case that an 'E' grade will be applied to routes to denote the difficulty of protecting them, ranging from E1 to E6 where 1 is perfect and 6 is YGD (aka take your small wires).

Personally I try to apply British trad grades to the big trad multis in the Alps because otherwise it's frankly very hard to process what you've done. A couple weeks ago I did 'Supertramp' on Bockmättli and it was anything but sport climbing. Crux pitches 6c+/7aish on very techy slab with huge runouts over bolts, and then easier pitches mostly trad with 2-3 fixed pieces on 50m. '8-' says absolutely nothing about the level and head required for that route!

It seems to me like there's a good case for generally trying to consider routes with a combined grade such as is sometimes the case on modern hard trad routes in the UK. Supertramp for example is probably  E5/8- which immediately gives a much better feel for the kind of runouts and commitment you might expect.

[MischaHY]

Non-psyche belay on 'Legitimo Bastardo'. First ascentionist was contacted and he is apparently already planning on re-equipping.