[i_a_coops]

I've always shied away from sieging things, I've never successfully spent more than 5 sessions on a sport route (there are a handful of things I've had more sessions than that on, but in a once per year 'lets see if I'm strong enough for this yet' kind of way, ie not having repeated sessions of failed redpoint attempts).

I now want to do something that I suspect is going to take a lot of sessions of attempts even though I can do all the moves pretty reliably, as it's got about 26 moves in a row all of which are frustratingly easy to slip off even if they don't feel super hard when you do them. There's also a heartbreaker actual hard move at about move 11. I think I ought to be able to link to that proper hard move, but I'm already feeling kinda queasy from self-imposed pressure to start making that link in a reasonable timeframe. The fact that I need good conditions, good skin, a willing belayer to ab into a massive hole in the ground, and box fresh shoes somehow make the pressure a lot worse (got a bad feeling it's going to get expensive in resoles!).

Anyway, advice welcome, even/especially if it's along the lines of 'it's just a bit of rock, get over yourself', but also if people have experience of spending lots of time on routes and breaking them down from feeling brick hard to flowing over sections of rock that they previously felt miles away, sharing some of that would be great too! 

[i_a_coops]

Inspirational videos of successful sieges featuring flailing footage from early in the process would be good too

[Ged]

Inspirational videos of successful sieges featuring flailing footage from early in the process would be good too

The one that works for me is just the "performance not outcome" mantra.  You're not setting off up it with the goal being to clip the chains.  The goal is to execute each move perfectly, and just focus on the next move.  It's really hard to do, especially when you get past a really hard bit and the "oh my god I'm going to do it" thoughts start creeping in.  I have to constantly remind myself that it's this bit that makes you a better climber, not the final successful redpoint. 

[moose]

Luke's Laws of Red-pointing:
(1) Try hard as hard as you can, whenever you can.
(2) Just. Keep. Turning Up.

More usefully though, try not to get dispirited by sessions of no / reverse progress. 

The hardest part of any siege is after you have the sequence sorted and have no more links to make.  At that point, there are no more "cheap", intermediate gains, and a successful RP is the only meaningful goal.  Even for the sunniest of people (ahem), sessions of relentless failure, without any tangible positive, can get a bit wearing. 

Myself, I learned to concentrate on the non-climbing positives of every session - appreciate just being at the crag, chatting with other climbers, watching others' efforts.  An unsuccessful RP is still a day out of the house and a good exercise in getting the sequence more wired, appreciating the flow of the moves (this is easier to maintain for projects with pleasant climbing and without a crux start!).   To be honest, doing my projects felt a bit irrelevant to my enjoyment - after all, success would only mean doing almost exactly the same next time, but on a bolt line a few metres away.  Perhaps I might have done projects a bit faster if I have had more desire  / determination, but I might also have had a nervous breakdown, obsessing over form and conditions etc.

In terms of more day-to-day, tactical advice.  I found that resting properly between full-on RPs was key for me e.g. 1-2 hours (admittedly, someone less decrepit might need shorter rests).  Not doing so left me the excuse that I was not fully rested from my last attempt - rest more and eliminate the excuse.  Obviously this limits the number of RPs in a session, and you end up belaying more than being belayed,  but I preferred to feel I had given myself the best chance to succeed; if I wanted to train, rather than "tick", I'd be doing 4x4s indoors.  Accessories like folding chair, portable fingerboards etc. are helpful for this approach (and de rigour at Kilnsey).

[scragrock]

Inspirational videos of successful sieges featuring flailing footage from early in the process would be good too

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/330292169

This is 7 minutes of me falling off my project up in Rooftowm{it took a awhile, as usual}.

[spidermonkey09]

My take on it is fairly similar to Luke's. I keep a diary of my training/sessions on rock and relentlessly spin every session into a positive in some way or another. Either a new link, doing a move slightly better, finding a new foothold; whatever it is, I find it way easier to stay motivated if I can see the small wins along the way. This does get harder as you get further along the road to ticking it and the low hanging fruit of big links gets eaten, but its still doable with a bit of reflection. If you do have a session where you feel utterly awful on it and make no progress at all, I just write it off and blame it on conditions or being tired or something.

Essentially, accentuate the small wins but also try and remain alert to indications that you are missing something on a certain move or sequence. Its never too late to change something. If you're confident you have the best sequence but just can't get through it, I find specificity to be key; come up with a replica on a board and just hammer away at it inbetween outdoor sessions.

Also heartily second the idea of looking at each session as a day outside and worthwhile in its own right, irrespective of progress on the route. This is hard to do but definitely worthwhile to try!

[shark]

Inspirational videos of successful sieges featuring flailing footage from early in the process would be good too

Several sessions in, trying hard, and still failing to get the first kneebar



A mere 5 years later

[shark]

a willing belayer to ab into a massive hole in the ground,

Is working it on a rope on your own possible? 

[i_a_coops]

Is working it on a rope on your own possible? 

It is - I have a fixed line in place and a micro trax/tract up setup, I can't do very big links links though as it has some sideways/downclimbing. I can practice the up sections with that setup and the traverses with a grigri but I think switching from one setup to the other on a link is beyond me!

[User deactivated.]

Possibly not relevant as bouldering focussed, but from the few sieges I've had, I now believe that I wasted my time by maintaining the 'just keep turning up' mentality, spending 15 sessions trying to get up something that I really wasn't strong enough for. I have since employed the alternative method of going away to train like a nutter, getting strong, climbing other stuff in the meantime, then going back to crush the hard thing when ready. I found this to be much more enjoyable but everyone is different. It's probably further reinforcing my poor technique too 

[i_a_coops]

Possibly not relevant as bouldering focussed, but from the few sieges I've had, I now believe that I wasted my time by maintaining the 'just keep turning up' mentality, spending 15 sessions trying to get up something that I really wasn't strong enough for. I have since employed the alternative method of going away to train like a nutter, getting strong, climbing other stuff in the meantime, then going back to crush the hard thing when ready. I found this to be much more enjoyable but everyone is different.

I totally agree - that's my usual approach - but this route is extremely specific and I don't think being stronger would actually really help, I just need to be really flowy/precise/accurate/lucky - and I'm hoping the more times I try it the luckier I'll get....

[shark]

Is working it on a rope on your own possible? 

It is - I have a fixed line in place and a micro trax/tract up setup, I can't do very big links links though as it has some sideways/downclimbing. I can practice the up sections with that setup and the traverses with a grigri but I think switching from one setup to the other on a link is beyond me!

That'll help when you cant get a partner.

Re the below:
"it's got about 26 moves in a row all of which are frustratingly easy to slip off even if they don't feel super hard when you do them" - is the slippability because of poor feet, body positioning, move initiation or accuracy going for the next hold? Either way seeking to identify why you fail when you do by breaking down into micro beta and then making them higher % moves through more practice, little mind memos and relentless visualisation should help.   

[Paul B]

I can't remember who it was that told me, but once you start thinking you'd like to have done it by now RPing becomes a bit grim. Try and enjoy it for what it is. My enjoyable seasons of RPing I seemed to manage to take real enjoyment out of very small progress (or just pushing myself). Perhaps my best season of RPing I just turned up relentlessly and would be one of those people trying the only 2m dry section on the route. This worked out really well as I found the first few bolts on the route in condition and a stiff breeze and managed to fluke my way upwards. These conditions didn't materialise again that season. Some of the best RPers I know seem to be ridiculous optimists.

[moose]

...also if people have experience of spending lots of time on routes and breaking them down from feeling brick hard to flowing over sections of rock that they previously felt miles away, sharing some of that would be great too! 

Bear in mind, that being able to "flow" through the moves in control, or the conditions being optimum, is not a prerequisite for doing a route, even close to your (perceived) limit.  I've had a few RPs where success came on a frankly terrible go in terms of precisely executing moves, when ill-prepared, or in poor conditions. 

E.g. when I did Grooved Arete, I was hungover, the weather was warm and humid, and my feet slipped off three times on the way up.  I was only at the crag to get out of the house and had no expectations, since I had been failing repeatedly when I felt far fitter and the conditions were much better. 

Similarly, when I did Urgent Action it was the first time I had ever linked from the ground, through a hard move fairly low down, to an intermediate rest, around halfway up.  It was the fourth session and my comment to my belayer before setting off was "if I can get to the 4th bolt today, that'll be a good day's work"!  I managed to get through "the move", and after a long rest / temporary mental breakdown at the rest, just kept on trucking (spurred by the suspicion that this go was an unrepeatable fluke).  When I was lowered off, I was almost delirious with fatigue and was stumbling around for an hour, babbling.  The other climbers there seemed almost as surprised, as I had made bugger-all progress since the start of the process - with no meaningful intermediate links.  Bullet at Kilnsey was similar - I had never managed the crux boulder sequence, even in complete isolation after resting on the rope, until the successful RP go.

The TLDR message, is don't get too hung-up on the moves feeling comfortable and achieving a neat-and-tidy succession of milestones.  Sometimes, the inexplicable happens and you shake, flail, and muddle your way to the top despite feeling you haven't established a foundation for success.  The key is stubbornness - if you do find yourself making unexpected progress - don't just accept that small gain- try to suffer all the way to chains.

[i_a_coops]

Re the below:
"it's got about 26 moves in a row all of which are frustratingly easy to slip off even if they don't feel super hard when you do them" - is the slippability because of poor feet, body positioning, move initiation or accuracy going for the next hold? Either way seeking to identify why you fail when you do by breaking down into micro beta and then making them higher % moves through more practice, little mind memos and relentless visualisation should help.   

Good question! I think the body positions have to be basically perfect for the footholds to stick, and to get between some of the body positions you have to move really dynamically so keeping consistent-ish pressure and angle of push on the footholds while moving between the positions is easy to cock up. Good suggestion to be really explicit about applying the scientific method and analysing what goes wrong when I do slip

Moose, I don't think I've ever stuck a move on the hard section without it feeling basically perfect - it's a slab so a foot pop basically equals a fall! Good point about conditions though, I try not to believe in them normally for precisely that reason.

[shark]

Good question! I think the body positions have to be basically perfect for the footholds to stick, and to get between some of the body positions you have to move really dynamically so keeping consistent-ish pressure and angle of push on the footholds while moving between the positions

I find writing the moves down on the notes app on my phone really helps as it’s always available, easy to edit and helps for visualisation. Go into as much detail as you can - ie not just the hand and foot sequence but body positions and move initiation too. Easy to edit as you refine things and useful to refresh your memory if you have a break from it.

A bit of deadlifting might help with the foot pressing. In fact any way you can train specifically for a project is the very best type of training IMO.

[Bonjoy]

...also if people have experience of spending lots of time on routes and breaking them down from feeling brick hard to flowing over sections of rock that they previously felt miles away, sharing some of that would be great too! 

Bear in mind, that being able to "flow" through the moves in control, or the conditions being optimum, is not a prerequisite for doing a route, even close to your (perceived) limit.  I've had a few RPs where success came on a frankly terrible go in terms of precisely executing moves, when ill-prepared, or in poor conditions. 

E.g. when I did Grooved Arete, I was hungover, the weather was warm and humid, and my feet slipped off three times on the way up.  I was only at the crag to get out of the house and had no expectations, since I had been failing repeatedly when I felt far fitter and the conditions were much better. 

Similarly, when I did Urgent Action it was the first time I had ever linked from the ground, through a hard move fairly low down, to an intermediate rest, around halfway up.  It was the fourth session and my comment to my belayer before setting off was "if I can get to the 4th bolt today, that'll be a good day's work"!  I managed to get through "the move", and after a long rest / temporary mental breakdown at the rest, just kept on trucking (spurred by the suspicion that this go was an unrepeatable fluke).  When I was lowered off, I was almost delirious with fatigue and was stumbling around for an hour, babbling.  The other climbers there seemed almost as surprised, as I had made bugger-all progress since the start of the process - with no meaningful intermediate links.  Bullet at Kilnsey was similar - I had never managed the crux boulder sequence, even in complete isolation after resting on the rope, until the successful RP go.

The TLDR message, is don't get too hung-up on the moves feeling comfortable and achieving a neat-and-tidy succession of milestones.  Sometimes, the inexplicable happens and you shake, flail, and muddle your way to the top despite feeling you haven't established a foundation for success.  The key is stubbornness - if you do find yourself making unexpected progress - don't just accept that small gain- try to suffer all the way to chains.

I read your comment about the nature of the route Ian, so I know this might not be super applicable in this case, but as a general point for redpointing I totally agree with what Moose is saying above. In my experience the ability to persist and mentally recover after some sort of mishap/error on a RP attempt separates the average redpointer from the good. Being able to do this is likely to shave sessions off many a siege and success breeds success, so will feed back into improved future ability. When I was doing a lot of redpointing I also tried to have regular days out trying things onsight, in part this was to sharpen the ability to make corrections and refocus mid-climb. I've seen loads of people drop off RP attempts after the slightest of errors, presumably because they believe they will not succeed without 100% perfect execution, or simply because their concentration is irrecoverably broken.

[jwi]

I can't remember who it was that told me, but once you start thinking you'd like to have done it by now RPing becomes a bit grim. Try and enjoy it for what it is.

This. I would never siege a route I did not enjoy. As long as the climbing is good I do not mind showing up again and again to give it more tries.

Also, I try to remember that "quick redpoint" just means "shit at onsighting"

[Bradders]

Possibly not relevant as bouldering focussed, but from the few sieges I've had, I now believe that I wasted my time by maintaining the 'just keep turning up' mentality, spending 15 sessions trying to get up something that I really wasn't strong enough for. I have since employed the alternative method of going away to train like a nutter, getting strong, climbing other stuff in the meantime, then going back to crush the hard thing when ready. I found this to be much more enjoyable but everyone is different. It's probably further reinforcing my poor technique too 

Well there's a fine line here, often you will be perfectly capable of doing something it just takes a few sessions to refine things. I've certainly found that with sport climbing recently, where things have felt a total nightmare on first acquaintance but can be quickly broken down. On longer boulders too I often find I almost have to build specific fitness for the problem in question, with the best way of doing that being on the problem itself.

It's very hard to judge though, and the sessions where you could do it on any go can be really tough mentally. That's where the "keep turning up" mantra really helps, as well as saying to yourself before each attempt that "it's just another go".

remain alert to indications that you are missing something on a certain move or sequence. Its never too late to change something.

This is really important. You should relentlessly pursue any and all opportunities to make things easier for yourself when climbing, and do the reverse when training.

[abarro81]

[I would never siege a route I did not enjoy.

+1 to this. I might onsight or 2nd go a route for the line or the history, but if you're sieging then I think you need to be on it for the climbing (moves, flow etc). For me that means long pumpy things because falling off pumped as hell at 30m is something I find fun, but falling off unpumped after 5-10m on a grim crux move gets really boring really fast for me!

[Ged]

[quote

Also, I try to remember that "quick redpoint" just means "shit at onsighting"
[/quote]

Genius

[remus]

On the inspiration front, I find Steve Mac's diary of attempts on Rainman very good for the psyche http://www.steve-mcclure.com/articles/131-rainman-saga

I find it incredible that the first time he had the "it's on!" moment after 120 sessions, and the continuous dedication to refining beta is remarkable.

[spidermonkey09]

[quote

Also, I try to remember that "quick redpoint" just means "shit at onsighting"

Genius
[/quote]

This might be true in Rodellar. It isn't true in the UK.

[jwi]

[quote

Also, I try to remember that "quick redpoint" just means "shit at onsighting"

Genius

This might be true in Rodellar. It isn't true in the UK.
[/quote]

Or anywhere where the rock is white and doesn't show chalk mark, or is slippery for the feet, or has a lot of undercuts, or has blind holds, or has hard boulders high up, or...

But the general point hold

[spidermonkey09]

Yes, all true. Basically the point I'm trying to make is that for all the people who climb on such rock colours /styles frequently, onsighting is harder and therefore the gap between their onsight grade and siege grade is likely to be larger. They aren't necessarily shit at that subdiscipline I don't think.