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Over-gripping, is this a thing? (Read 3511 times)

jwi

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Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 09:14:36 pm
[a rant badly disguised as a question]

From time to time I have come across the term over-gripping. The usage of the term implies that the climber apply way more force through their hands than necessary to hold on, but not because of bad movement skills in general. Instead the implication seems to be that the flexors are somehow producing superfluous force — maybe because the climber is pinching the hold and opposing force is caused by the thumb.

The term over-gripping appears mostly in articles Mr. Stephenson would classify as bulshytt i.e. speech or writing employing rhetorical subterfuge to "create the impression that something has been said." I have not come across the term in scientific literature.

As someone who was forced to draw a lot of a free body diagrams in school I am very curious what the source is for the opposing force if the finger flexors produce "too much force". Answers with a clear line drawing gives extra points.

Another thing that makes me most sceptical that this is a thing is that humans have amazing fine motor skills with a large part of the motor cortex dedicated to control of the hands and the fingers. That's why I can hold and control even the lightest object with great dexterity even though I am old and clumsy.

So my question is, over-gripping is not a thing is it? If it is, is there some evidence that it exists, maybe using one of these now so common force measure devices that are used on some hangboards etc?


Fiend

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#1 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 09:22:14 pm
Just use the kneebar to shake out if you've been over-gripping  :smartass:

lagerstarfish

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#2 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 10:20:07 pm
It is a thing.
It would be better described as "over pulling"
One aspect of the issue is trying to pull harder on the positive facet of the hold. Can be experienced as "gripping"

teestub

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#3 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 10:25:16 pm
[a rant badly disguised as a question]

So my question is, over-gripping is not a thing is it? If it is, is there some evidence that it exists, maybe using one of these now so common force measure devices that are used on some hangboards etc?

As a died in the wool route climber I guess it’s something that you trained yourself out of long ago, but it always takes me a conscious effort when I move into a repeater phase of fingerboarding (or am trying a longer problem) to hold on less hard.

Not sure if your free body diagrams still apply when it’s an isometric contraction rather than an attempt to generate movement?

i_a_coops

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#4 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 10:26:08 pm
If the hold is friction dependent (ie slopy, whether it's a crimp or a sloper) I imagine there's potential for using more muscular force to decrease the reliance on friction? I think in these circumstances 'climbing with good technique' pretty much equates to using as much friction force and as little muscular force as possible.

Even on positive holds on glassy rock, i think it's possible to apply too much muscular force in some circumstances Firstly, not all holds point down - some point sideways. When laybacking or tufa climbing, the 'extra' force sideways applied by an over-cautious climber would be balanced by an opposing force from the feet, which would incidentally also require more core muscles to be tensed to keep your body rigid). I think 'over-gripping' can also apply to jams - I can put my hand in a hand of fist jam and apply loads of force by twisting my hand/moving my thumb/clenching my fist/whatever which all my weight firmly on my feet on the floor! (which is why I get pumped so fast in baggy hands while people who are actually good at baggy hands barely get more pumped than they do in perfect hands....)

jwi

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#5 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 10:28:15 pm
One aspect of the issue is trying to pull harder on the positive facet of the hold.

Mr. Newton claims that in that case the climber would accelerate inwards toward the rock face, to hilarious effect

jwi

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#6 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 10:46:18 pm
If the hold is friction dependent (ie slopy, whether it's a crimp or a sloper) I imagine there's potential for using more muscular force to decrease the reliance on friction? I think in these circumstances 'climbing with good technique' pretty much equates to using as much friction force and as little muscular force as possible.
Sure, on some holds you can e.g. opt to crimp instead of relying more on friction by dragging say, which may be more or less efficient depending on the hold. This does not seems to be how the term over-gripping is used.

Quote
Even on positive holds on glassy rock, i think it's possible to apply too much muscular force in some circumstances Firstly, not all holds point down - some point sideways. When laybacking or tufa climbing, the 'extra' force sideways applied by an over-cautious climber would be balanced by an opposing force from the feet, which would incidentally also require more core muscles to be tensed to keep your body rigid).
Laybacking with the feet to high is not overgripping, it is shit technique that put too much force on the fingers, surely?

Quote
I think 'over-gripping' can also apply to jams - I can put my hand in a hand of fist jam and apply loads of force by twisting my hand/moving my thumb/clenching my fist/whatever which all my weight firmly on my feet on the floor! (which is why I get pumped so fast in baggy hands while people who are actually good at baggy hands barely get more pumped than they do in perfect hands....)
Here at least Newton agrees. It is indeed admitted by the second law of motion to overgrip on pinches and jams.

abarro81

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#7 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 10:51:15 pm
I think from a physics perspective "overgripping" and "climbing badly" are often synonymous. Perhaps it would be better described as "climbing (or even resting) badly due to being scared and/or tense".

lagerstarfish

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#8 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 10:53:11 pm
One aspect of the issue is trying to pull harder on the positive facet of the hold.

Mr. Newton claims that in that case the climber would accelerate inwards toward the rock face, to hilarious effect

Fuck Newton.
He's an idiot.
Staying in close contact with the rock is what the unconfident climber wants.

jwi

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#9 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 10:59:51 pm
I think from a physics perspective "overgripping" and "climbing badly" are often synonymous. Perhaps it would be better described as "climbing (or even resting) badly due to being scared and/or tense".

If overgripping actually means "breakdown of technique due to heightened arousal" it is a thing, and one of the best described phenomenon in the science of motor leaning. Why would you need a non-descriptive name for it though?

lagerstarfish

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#10 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 11:05:00 pm
I think from a physics perspective "overgripping" and "climbing badly" are often synonymous. Perhaps it would be better described as "climbing (or even resting) badly due to being scared and/or tense".

If overgripping actually means "breakdown of technique due to heightened arousal" it is a thing, and one of the best described phenomenon in the science of motor leaning. Why would you need a non-descriptive name for it though?

Because humans

Fultonius

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#11 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 11:09:19 pm
Could it be to do with the slight mechanical advantage you get from the "friction" inside your tendon sheath? Does that not supply about 10% of your force, when in slight extension?so hitting a crimp, engaging but then relaxing into it might gain you 10‰ of your required force for free?

Also, on incut or friction based holds, you can apply a static force that is basically trying to "crush" the rock. Newton is satisfied by the incompressible nature.

Little experiment for you next time you're at the crag - grab an incut hold and try to hold it (not pull on it) as hard as you can. Did you fly away?

petejh

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#12 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 12, 2021, 11:24:24 pm
I think from a physics perspective "overgripping" and "climbing badly" are often synonymous. Perhaps it would be better described as "climbing (or even resting) badly due to being scared and/or tense".

If overgripping actually means "breakdown of technique due to heightened arousal" it is a thing, and one of the best described phenomenon in the science of motor leaning. Why would you need a non-descriptive name for it though?

Because it describes perfectly well the sensation, if not the physics? We are humans after all and not dynometers.

Also, as Fultonius points out the rock is unyielding. Same as an ice axe shaft. Which as a non-physicist I can confirm can be gripped either very very lightly or very very tightly (in fear) with no difference in effect on the tip of the axe pick on the rock.

tomtom

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#13 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 13, 2021, 09:10:22 am
JWI - are you forgetting feet?

Most of the time you are balancing load between hands and feet - eg 10kg per hand and 25kg per foot (70kg climber). So if you are not happy with a foothold - or your body position/core/tension isn’t good enough to load that foot properly then you will over load the hand and under load a foot.

Obvs something beginners tend to do as they don’t trust their feet and/or have sub optimal technique. But equally if you don’t trust a foot/heel - especially easy when tired - then the same effect. 

In this circumstance I think over gripping is a pretty good description!

Johnny Brown

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#14 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 13, 2021, 09:17:58 am
What Pete and Tom said. I think over-gripping is a perfectly reasonable description. Typically it is a failure to relax and weight the feet properly resulting in more weight through the arms, and yes, holding on harder. To anyone doubting this phenomenon I suggest a weekend on Cilan.

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#15 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 13, 2021, 09:31:40 am
o anyone doubting this phenomenon I suggest a weekend on Cilan.
An ideal cure for many modern ailments.

mrjonathanr

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#16 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 13, 2021, 02:37:58 pm
The term 'gripped' tells its own story.

SA Chris

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#17 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 13, 2021, 10:26:49 pm
The term 'gripped' tells its own story.

As does crushing

mrjonathanr

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#18 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 13, 2021, 10:34:28 pm
Bit more used to being gripped tbh

Durbs

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#19 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 14, 2021, 08:49:12 am
Definitely a thing.

Whenever I take noobs to the wall for the first time - I always make a point of getting them on a slight overhang on jugs, go 2 moves up, then stay there and ask them to relax their hands as much as possible.
At first they're very much squeezing the hold as hard as they can, and it's a really noticeable thing to be able to let go of a LOT of that squeeze and still be really secure on a hold.

I think it's something you naturally stop doing quite early on, but probably lingers on in many situations.

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#20 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 14, 2021, 08:54:29 am
What Pete and Tom said. I think over-gripping is a perfectly reasonable description. Typically it is a failure to relax and weight the feet properly resulting in more weight through the arms, and yes, holding on harder. To anyone doubting this phenomenon I suggest a weekend on Cilan.

Spot on.

I think grip type also plays a part? As in using full crimp is a more intense isometric contraction for the forearm than dragging, and if you're bearing down on holds that you could be holding quite casually then over-gripping seems like a perfect descriptive term to me.

moose

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#21 Re: Over-gripping, is this a thing?
June 14, 2021, 09:00:22 am
I used to over-grip badly every Spring, when I went from a Winter of almost only indoor bouldering to sport climbing at Malham.  I'd pump out badly after around 6 moves, almost irrespective of difficulty. 

I was never sure if it was inability to use my feet - having to grip harder until I got used to using polished smears.  Or, if it was a muscle recruitment issue after 5-6 months of power focussed climbing - every muscle fibre contracting, "all gas no brakes" and an inability to meter my effort appropriately.

 

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