[Fiend]

*sigh*

[jwi]

I brought a crack glove with me up a long route in Rodellar yesterday to see if I could use it to finagle a shakeout in a crack near the top as the jam did not really stick without gloves or tape. Much to my disappointment it did not really work. I vote against them.

[Rob F]

Are we talking in terms of sunburn tattoos???

[tomtom]

Fiend - as you’ve been climbing with Shark this week - has he slipped you a very thin manila envelope of fuck all’s to start clickbait threads to drive up forum traffic? 😁

[Fiend]

He tried to slip me something very thin, I had to fend him off with a clipstick.

P.S. Jwi nice story, glad someone is taking this seriously.

[Hoseyb]

I would use either to reduce pain and blood loss. However the crack gloves so far have been inferior to a good tape job an anything but standard hands. They don't handle flares etc. Not succumbed to knee pads yet, but carhartts give plenty of protection, as do neoprene ankle supports.

[Paul B]

I bought a set in the states as I was going through so much tape. I still remember struggling on one crack, it won't have been particularly hard, biting through my tape gloves with my teeth to tear them off as they were clearly the problem only to find I was just being shit. A minute later and I had a fair amount of thick blood running down my wrist. I think the Ocun ones were the 'best' at the time.

[SA Chris]

I read that as appealing

[Potash]

I spent a few months in Indian Creek a few years back and found crack gloves useless for my preferred style of crack, thin hands.

The volume of the gloves and the way they prevented you getting your hands into marginal placements rendered them non-functional. Instead I just used roll after roll of tape!

Possibly if you just wanted to pootle up 5.10 hand cracks they would work fine.

[MischaHY]

The Ccun ones will almost certainly sabotage the thin hands because they're chunky and best on sharp things or baggy/perfect hands. I've been using the Black Diamond gloves recently and they're mint in the thin stuff - very thin and flexible but still enough protection. Ironically this makes them less good on lime cracks because they don't pad out the spikes in the way that the Ocun do. I've done all my harder crack stuff with gloves, but granted that's only up to 7a/+ish on proper cracks rather than a few jams on a sport route. 

[petejh]

Was climbing at fairhead last weekend and there were a few pairs of crack gloves on parade. Didn’t see any kneepads..

Said it before and will say it again, if kneepads for climbing specific routes then why not heel spurs for climbing different specific routes.
Once you start adding equipment to improve purchase from body parts other than feet it seems arbitrary to me whether you use hard rubber hooks, spikes, or padding - if you couldn’t climb a route with rock shoes and chalk (ok and underpants if you’re shark) then the line of what’s fair game is very blurry.
As long as it doesn’t damage the rock.

[slab_happy]

Once you start adding equipment to improve purchase from body parts other than feet it seems arbitrary to me whether you use hard rubber hooks, spikes, or padding - if you couldn’t climb a route with rock shoes and chalk (ok and underpants if you’re shark) then the line of what’s fair game is very blurry.

What if I make sure I'm wearing jeans when engaging in filthy wide crack activities? Is that aid?

[teestub]

Said it before and will say it again, if kneepads for climbing specific routes then why not heel spurs for climbing different specific routes.
Once you start adding equipment to improve purchase from body parts other than feet it seems arbitrary to me whether you use hard rubber hooks, spikes, or padding - if you couldn’t climb a route with rock shoes and chalk (ok and underpants if you’re shark) then the line of what’s fair game is very blurry.
As long as it doesn’t damage the rock.

I guess you’d probably just end up with a similar situation to mixed climbing where people decided it wasn’t cool and everyone (?) stopped using them. Or when those guys used ice axes to climb a thin aid crack on a rock route.

Also think that unlike kneebars and knee pads, I don’t think there would be a one size fits all heel improvement for a climbing shoe.

[Duma]

Kind of what Pete says, but perhaps less extreme?

Folk often seem to focus on the techniques in these debates, but it's the equipment that matters - No one (with any sense) should be arguing for the exclusion of techniques, but when discussing equipment there has to be a line drawn somewhere - otherwise we end up with heel spurs and hooked gloves... I think this debate needs to happen in climbing as I doubt we're far from rubber coated finger tape...
Pads are here to stay, but I think a reasonable line to draw would be anything that modifies the shape of the body is not OK - This would (obviously) exclude bollocks like books under kneepads, but also disallow any sort of ridging that can be used to catch on stuff. Personally I'd like to see no rubber anywhere but feet, and any other bits only for pain alleviation, but I think we're past that point

As I said a few months ago...

You can do the move up with the RH with a catch heel for right foot and knowing Michael he's pretty good with an anasazi so he may well have used it. Could be an explanation for the grade difference anyhow as with the catch heel i found that move super reliable and you can get the jump RH super well.

I'm guessing you mean like the white heel Dan?
Given the all the noise around knee pads lately I'm amazed this sort of cheating goes by unmentioned. I mean it's just a half arsed spur - you're passively hanging weight off a piece of equipment. How much rubber do I have to coat my crampons in before it's OK?
Fat lip is such a joke.
[\rant]

[petejh]

What if I make sure I'm wearing jeans when engaging in filthy wide crack activities? Is that aid?

Drainpipe, baggy or flared?

[petejh]

I guess you’d probably just end up with a similar situation to mixed climbing where people decided it wasn’t cool and everyone (?) stopped using them. Or when those guys used ice axes to climb a thin aid crack on a rock route.

Also think that unlike kneebars and knee pads, I don’t think there would be a one size fits all heel improvement for a climbing shoe.

Yep exactly this, mixed climbing is the precedent here. Rock climbing appears to be moving rapidly towards facing the same ethical question that steep mixed climbing did around 2005. It’s all about equipment not technique - Barrows espouses the joys of climbing long enduro pitches where resting/doing moves from knees is the only way to keep the route manageable within the grade. The issue isn’t the technique it’s the inevitable progression of the equipment to the point where it becomes so good that it changes the challenge beyond a presently-invisible line in the sand. If enough people enjoy the new game then fine, climbing goes in that direction. It's all arbitrary, just depends which flavour of arbitrariness the consensus is. E.g. the arbitrary unwritten rules used to be try to limit the number of pegs for aid used on a first ascent.. or yo-yo'ing an ascent was ok, then it wasn't.
But if climbing does go in the direction of bodily appendages then why not put ribs, hard rubber spikes or hooks on kneepads, forearms, heels. Basically anything to reduce gravity's challenge to the finger flexors and forearm muscles which are the biggest limitations to human performance in rock climbing.

[dunnyg]

Not modifying the body sounds like on obvious line, but it isnt. How big a tape glove is reasonable, a guy I was climbing with in the US built himself some "Battle mitts" which significantly increased his hand size. They were a work of art to be fair 

[abarro81]

Ahem, anasazi heel 

[Duma]

exactly.

[duncan]

The Ocun ones will almost certainly sabotage the thin hands because they're chunky and best on sharp things or baggy/perfect hands. I've been using the Black Diamond gloves recently and they're mint in the thin stuff - very thin and flexible but still enough protection. Ironically this makes them less good on lime cracks because they don't pad out the spikes in the way that the Ocun do. I've done all my harder crack stuff with gloves, but granted that's only up to 7a/+ish on proper cracks rather than a few jams on a sport route.

Thanks Misha, I've used AJM's Ocuns on a spiky Dartmoor granite hand/fist crack where they worked well but wouldn't choose them for tight hands on smooth rock. We agreed they felt like jamming gloves V1.0. Have you tried any others?

Folk often seem to focus on the techniques in these debates, but it's the equipment that matters - No one (with any sense) should be arguing for the exclusion of techniques, but when discussing equipment there has to be a line drawn somewhere - otherwise we end up with heel spurs and hooked gloves... I think this debate needs to happen in climbing as I doubt we're far from rubber coated finger tape...
Pads are here to stay, but I think a reasonable line to draw would be anything that modifies the shape of the body is not OK - This would (obviously) exclude bollocks like books under kneepads, but also disallow any sort of ridging that can be used to catch on stuff. Personally I'd like to see no rubber anywhere but feet, and any other bits only for pain alleviation, but I think we're past that point

To me, the important differentiation is equipment innovation aiming to increase safety (in the last 50 years: small wired nuts, cams, bouldering pads) versus gear aiming to make climbing easier (chalk, thigh pads).  The former seem to gain acceptance fairly quickly - other than bolts which arguably introduced a different sport - whereas the latter have had more push-back.

[Will Hunt]

Is the rules as simple as:
Technological advances are OK if they help you to do something better that you can already do.

We don't have heel spurs or skeletal hooks on our hands, but we can do kneebars without pads and we can jam without gloves.

Or when those guys used ice axes to climb a thin aid crack on a rock route.

FFS, don't these punters know that the only proper way to climb impossibly thin cracks is to spend a few decades repeatedly battering pegs into them until there are sufficient peg scars to accommodate the fingers? 

[cheque]

[teestub]

Kind of what Pete says, but perhaps less extreme?

Folk often seem to focus on the techniques in these debates, but it's the equipment that matters - No one (with any sense) should be arguing for the exclusion of techniques, but when discussing equipment there has to be a line drawn somewhere - otherwise we end up with heel spurs and hooked gloves... I think this debate needs to happen in climbing as I doubt we're far from rubber coated finger tape...
Pads are here to stay, but I think a reasonable line to draw would be anything that modifies the shape of the body is not OK - This would (obviously) exclude bollocks like books under kneepads, but also disallow any sort of ridging that can be used to catch on stuff. Personally I'd like to see no rubber anywhere but feet, and any other bits only for pain alleviation, but I think we're past that point

Personally I feel like the advancement of the toe end of the shoe has had a greater impact on my climbing than anything at the heel end. There’s definitely been some problems I would have struggled or failed completely on without downturned shoes with a liberal coating of toe rubber.

I remember Jim saying in here years ago that downturned shoes should be considered cheating at the bowderstone!

[dunnyg]

I should probably get some one day, and maybe I will climb something there...

[Kingy]

Some great points being made here. The kneebar debate brought to mind the ancient 'Clean Hand Gang' operating in the early 80s consisting of those opposed to the use of chalk. I remember reading in High Magazine when I started climbing that Pat Littlejohn used to be a member and managed to do White Hotel E6 6c in Huntsmans Leap without chalk, which struck me as an impressive feat, before eventually embracing the white stuff . I can't help feeling that kneepads are going the same way. With routes that are now easier avec knees, it seems silly to avoid them as you can be sure that everyone who can fit their shin in will be using them. Take Mecca as a case in point. It was way harder without the kneebar. Does this matter? Not at all, as long as its known in which style you did something. Maybe we will all look back in 20 years and think of the current hesitancy to embrace the knee as analogous to the last stand of the Clean Hang Gang in the early 80s. No Knee Gang anyone? 

[Rob F]

That Bingo is remarkably accurate. 

I think that all these issues would become a non event with the introduction of a Standard Uniform for hard ascents.

Something along the lines of white edgeclinger tights and neon (colour of your choosing) Think Pink vest.

[Fiend]

Top work, right middle has me properly laughing 

[jwi]

Personally I feel like the advancement of the toe end of the shoe has had a greater impact on my climbing than anything at the heel end. There’s definitely been some problems I would have struggled or failed completely on without downturned shoes with a liberal coating of toe rubber.

This.

Soft downturned shoes with toe rubber for toe hooking are a big game changer steep routes. I have noticed that heel hooks often seems handy for climbers who are more flexible in the hip and better climbers than I.

[GazM]

Regarding crack gloves, if these are the game changer that means I actually start enjoying crack climbing then I'm all for them. For years I've shied away from jamming cos I'm really crap at it and it just seemed unnecessarily painful and awkward but this means my trad climbing has definitely suffered.
I built a couple of cracks either side of my board during last year's lockdown and with the cheap Simond gloves and more lately the Ocun ones I'm loving it. Lack of time due to parenthood means I'm yet to deploy my new skills (ahem) where it matters, but I'm certainly keen to try, and without the gloves I'm certain that wouldn't be the case.

[jwi]

I have some old crack gloves and find them really useful for warming up. For hard cracks I prefer tape or nothing, but for easy cracks they are good enough, and protect better than even a good tape job. And it is irritating to tape up for just one route, crack gloves are much easier to get on and off. On Czech and Elbe sandstone rubber handjammies are better than taping imho.

I have always recommended people to either tape up or put un gloves to learn jamming. No one has good coordination for jams in the beginning, and goobies are just horrible. Once you have good coordination they are less necessary, but for certain limestone cracks they increase the comfort enormously.