[Teaboy]

I have arthritis in my big toes and it’s now reached the point that relieving the pain from this overrides all other considerations when choosing a boot. Down turned toes, I think, help. The best I’ve used recently are old style Evolve Shamans but don’t know if the newer models have the necessary clog like characteristics or they chose to make the newer versions climb well instead! I’ve had lots of La Sportiva VS but the stiff point of these soon wears off which is good for climbing but not so for pain tolerance.

Any suggestions from the similarly afflicted or Weak of feet are sought.

[Paul B]

Can you still get the old style Sportiva Testarossa?

[M1V0]

New style Testas are pretty stiff rubber-wise, but surprisingly sensitive in the mid-sole, I found.

What about the Unparallel TN Pros? I recall they're a solid piece of rubber from toe to heel?

[Teaboy]

Do the Tesstas still use XS Grip rubber rather than Edge?

[M1V0]

Xs Grip 2

[remus]

They're not down turned but these are very stiff, could be worth a try if you're in a shop

https://darkventures.co.uk/unparallel-rise-pro-519-p.asp

[Teaboy]

There seems to be a lot of love for Unparallel but my god those are ugly!

[NoonThunder]

Perhaps try the new Scarpa Boostic? 4mm XS Edge with a full length sole. Probably the stiffest Scarpa for a while!

[moose]

Not worn them myself, but Scarpa Magos were always regarded as being very stiff.

[Nutty]

Bit of a curveball but maybe the EB Strange? Not tried them myself but have wondered about ordering a pair. Described as 'rigid and asymmetrical', 5mm of rubber.

[Adam Lincoln]

La Sportiva Otaki

[remus]

Perhaps try the new Scarpa Boostic? 4mm XS Edge with a full length sole. Probably the stiffest Scarpa for a while!

Personally I havent found the new boostics to be particularly stiff (they're softer than the instinct vs for me).

[IanP]

La Sportiva Miura XX if you have narrow feet? I prefer a stiff shoe and they're  my favourite for limestone.  Limited edition and have been really hard to get but I've just bought a couple of new pairs from climbing clearence on ebay, they still have a few available in various sizes.

[Scouse D]

I suffered with stiff and sore big toes for years. This year and last I made some real progress by massaging the arch of the foot focusing on real tender spots/trigger points. I wore toe separators for about a month even in shoes ( bought work shoes with wide toe box)An easy experiment would be to make a rudimentary toe separator out of some tissue paper or cotton wool and wedge it between big and second toe to straighten up the big toe, gave me instant relief.
 In terms of shoes I tried very stiff shoes for a while but it didnt really improve the situation and I felt I was getting more and more disabled. I now wear blue scarpa vcs (a soft shoe) but in a large size and my feet really appreciate it.

[mrjonathanr]

I have resoled old style Magos. They are very stiff and very downturned. Brilliant on limestone. Probably new style ones are similar?

[Teaboy]

Thanks for all for the suggestions, I'll do some research on the less popular makes (EB, Ocun) but it looks as though Scarpa might be the new to look at of the big 3 (or 4?).

[Yossarian]

I'm in this market at the moment. I'm about to send back some Unparallel NewTros because, though the front of the shoe felt like a dream and the soles / downturn / stiffness looked just right, my heels are totally the wrong shape and they're not going to work...

I've got some semi-worn VS-Rs and Instinct Laces, both of which I've liked, and will probably get some Instinct VSs next.

However, I wondered if anyone has tried out Evolv Phantoms? These look like a decent option being obviously very downturned and apparently quite stiff also. They seem to have a more contemporary, sorry, nuskool, approach to sizing, i.e. buy your street shoesize or similar. Any thoughts?

And any other options I might've missed?

[RobK]

I'm in this market at the moment. I'm about to send back some Unparallel NewTros because, though the front of the shoe felt like a dream and the soles / downturn / stiffness looked just right, my heels are totally the wrong shape and they're not going to work...

I've got some semi-worn VS-Rs and Instinct Laces, both of which I've liked, and will probably get some Instinct VSs next.

However, I wondered if anyone has tried out Evolv Phantoms? These look like a decent option being obviously very downturned and apparently quite stiff also. They seem to have a more contemporary, sorry, nuskool, approach to sizing, i.e. buy your street shoesize or similar. Any thoughts?

And any other options I might've missed?

I have both the Phantoms and the Instinct Laces. Similar in mid-sole stiffness. The main differences for me are the rigidity of the heel and the position of your toes in the toe box. Although both seem to have a similar down turn, the Phantoms for me put my toes in a much more 'crimped' position (if that makes sense) so they feel more aggressive. This is good on really steep terrain, but the Instincts feel more precise on vertical and slightly overhanging terrain. In practice, for me, this means I wear the Phantoms almost exclusively on steep boulder problems, whereas the Instincts are one of my go to shoes for places like Malham. So very different venues! The Phantom heel is also much more rigid, not really a pro or con, just different. Both heels fit me well. FWIW I wear an EU43 in the Instinct and a UK9.5 in the Phantom.

Edit: maybe take a look at the new Scarpa Boostic too? I haven't tried them but have heard good things, so long as you don't expect them to feel like the old model.

[Fultonius]

I don't find the new boostic all that stiff, in fact, Instinct Lace is stiffer.  Don't get me wrong, it's a good shoe the new boostic but really I'd say it's kind of same same with the Instinct VS...

New Mago maybe?  Not tried it, but had the old ones and they were edging beasts.

[Teaboy]

I ended up going for the Scarpa Vapour V but won’t have a chance to try them out until the end of the month. I also tried on some others and really liked one of the EB models but the heel cup was a bit too stiff and felt like it would irritate my Achilles. I bought them from V12 in Llanberis who seemed to have a reasonable range and complete sets of sizes.

[mrjonathanr]

I don't find the new boostic all that stiff, in fact, Instinct Lace is stiffer.  Don't get me wrong, it's a good shoe the new boostic but really I'd say it's kind of same same with the Instinct VS...

New Mago maybe?  Not tried it, but had the old ones and they were edging beasts.

Disappointingly soft in the shop. Have first model and last season’s which are a bit softer. This new model appears much softer though 🙁

It’s almost as if they think there’s a bigger indoor than outdoor market.

[sidewinder]

La Sportiva Otaki

Second this, think they are a great shoe.

[MischaHY]

Coming in with a curveball here but considering you didn't spec that's for steep terrain, have you tried TC Pro's? These get billed as a trad shoe but are actually amazing for edging and foot support, even stiffer than Miura VS but still with decent sensitivity for foot placement. Obviously not a downturn but amazing foot support for slab to moderate overhang which is where stiffness would be helping anyway.

[Yossarian]

Interesting! I do want to get a pair of them actually, though I was thinking more about steep stuff when I wrote the above.

I have a pair of Miura XXs which totally felt like cheating on steep edges when they were new. They're not completely worn out but the sole has unglued a bit so I've not worn them much recently. I had planned to buy some more via eBay but they've all gone now.

That's the kind of feeling I want to replicate ,which the front of the NewTro seemed to do, albeit with a less pointed toe. In contrast, my Instinct Laces seemed to soften up quite fast. I wonder if the VS remains stiffer than the Lace because of the upper construction?

Re TC Pros - I had two bad experiences with clumsy stiff shoes years ago (borrowed Aces, and then 5.10 Newtons which I loathed) and I've tended to gravitate towards softer things since. But now the prospect of something stiff and precise even if they're sized to be comfortable-ish sounds amazing. When I was in Bregaglia / Mello a few years ago I wore small but floppy (the worst of both worlds, obvs) Katanas and they totally fucked my feet.

[IanP]

I have a pair of Miura XXs which totally felt like cheating on steep edges when they were new. They're not completely worn out but the sole has unglued a bit so I've not worn them much recently. I had planned to buy some more via eBay but they've all gone now.

As earlier in this thread I'm a big fan of the Muira XX and did manage to get a couple of new pairs on ebay last year.  Also have couple on resoles (from Llanberis) and I think they actually climb better than the new pairs so may be worth considering if not too worn out.   

[mrjonathanr]

Regarding the preponderance of soft shoes, I read an ABC report today which stated that prepandemic in 2019 participation in climbing at 340k stood above cricket at 314k.
It also said (though not sure how they know) that 90% of participation is indoors.

For a manufacturer, the maths is clear I think.

[cheque]

What is it that makes soft shoes better for indoor climbing?

[jwi]

What is it that makes soft shoes better for indoor climbing?

Modern indoor bouldering = walking on plywood boxes and standing on fibreglass dinghies. Stiff tight shoes are about the worst thing you can have on your feet. Quite a lot of problems are easier to do in five tennies than in Miuras.

[slab_happy]

I have a pair of Miura XXs which totally felt like cheating on steep edges when they were new. They're not completely worn out but the sole has unglued a bit so I've not worn them much recently. I had planned to buy some more via eBay but they've all gone now.

Love my Miura XX, but aren't they basically "the Miura VS but with laces"?

The Miura VS has the P3 whatsit that holds the sole downturn and is generally stiffer than the Miura lace-ups; they're significantly different shoes built on the same last. So if the XX works for you and you don't mind velcro, worth checking out the VS.

[webbo]

I use the Miura VS and have about 6 pairs over time. They are stiff out of the box but gradually go soft. I also find due to using them on my board they develop a lump on the toe part of the sole, this eventually delaminates.
I keep planning to try another shoe but as can usually get a pair at reasonable price I haven’t bothered.

[IanP]

I have a pair of Miura XXs which totally felt like cheating on steep edges when they were new. They're not completely worn out but the sole has unglued a bit so I've not worn them much recently. I had planned to buy some more via eBay but they've all gone now.

Love my Miura XX, but aren't they basically "the Miura VS but with laces"?

The Miura VS has the P3 whatsit that holds the sole downturn and is generally stiffer than the Miura lace-ups; they're significantly different shoes built on the same last. So if the XX works for you and you don't mind velcro, worth checking out the VS.

Not exactly, in a weird La Sportiva way the last on the Miura VS is significantly different to the Miura, the below diagram (from La Sportiva website) shows the the Miura is one of there narrowest shows while the Miura VS is on the wider side 

https://www.lasportiva.com/media/mageplaza/blog/post/2/z/2zi74.jpg

On your other points I generally agree, the XX is stiffer and retains its downturn much better than the standard Miura, though I think the initial downturn is maybe slightly less than that on the VS from my experience.  Interestingly at the wall the other day we were comparing my resoled XXs with a pair of resoled standard Miura and the shape in terms of retained downturn was night and day.

All slightly off topic since the XX is pretty much impossible to get now - fortunately I have 4 pairs in various conditions so reckon I should be OK for a few years since they resole so well

[steveri]

What is it that makes soft shoes better for indoor climbing?

In a funny sort of way, indoor climbing isn't always a good test of footwork. Same for the circuit board - for me it's more useful stepping down a grade using the small sloper footholds, rather than the better blobs. Taxes the whole body more and makes it less about whether you can pull on the holds.

[slab_happy]

Not exactly, in a weird La Sportiva way the last on the Miura VS is significantly different to the Miura, the below diagram (from La Sportiva website) shows the the Miura is one of there narrowest shows while the Miura VS is on the wider side 

Aha, thank you for the clarification on the last! Mysterious are the ways of shoe companies.

Interestingly at the wall the other day we were comparing my resoled XXs with a pair of resoled standard Miura and the shape in terms of retained downturn was night and day.

Oh yeah, at the moment my XX are my indoor bouldering shoes, and I have standard Miuras in a half-size bigger as my comfy trad shoes. Very different beasts.

All slightly off topic since the XX is pretty much impossible to get now

I figured not too off-topic if Yossarian's looking for something similar -- worth knowing how they relate to the Miura VS.

[Yossarian]

That's for all the suggestions / thoughts here - just going through them after emerging from covid-hole...

I love the idea of the TN Pros, but if the heel shape is anything like the NewTro then I won't fit into them. The latter felt like exactly what I was after but the heel didn't work for me at all. It might be that I tried to go too small. I'm around 11.5 street and tried 10 and 10.5. I'm usually 44 in equivalent Scarpa / Sportiva.

[andy_e]

I had to size a bit above skate shoes for the NewTro lace. 8.5 in UpRise VCS/Anasazi LV, 9 in Dragons, Sirius, skate shoes, 9.5 in NewTro lace, approach shoes and B2s.

Are you talking about the NewTro velcro or lace? The NewTro VCS didn't work anywhere near as well for me as the NewTro lace.

[Yossarian]

The velcro. That's interesting. I might try again with something bigger and maybe the lace too.

[Duncan Disorderly]

Been following this thread with interest as I'm exactly the same, hoarded blancos all the way but am down to my last pair! A stiff downturned boot that fits like a 5:10 sounds like a bit of a dream boot! My mate has a pair and raves about em too....

[Wood FT]

I found the TN and the regulus very difficult to actually get on, without sizing down further than I would want to.

Did anyone else find this? I know of one other person…

[teestub]

I found the TN and the regulus very difficult to actually get on, without sizing down further than I would want to.

Did anyone else find this? I know of one other person…

Were you using a bit of plastic bag to start with? Any shoes with that sort of closure (Hiangles, teams, skwama, etc) I use a bit of plastic bag on the heel to slide them on, but  once they are actually on they are generally all good if they are the right size.

[Wood FT]

I’m on my 4th pair of recent build hiangles and I’ve got some Skwamas. These are next level hard to get on, I did the full plaggy bag / put them on in the bath and ended up just ripping the heel loop off. Not the only one either.

That said, very comfy and precise shoe once on…

[teestub]

Fair play they sound like another level of inconvenience!

[daddy long legs]

To the OP, you should give the Ozone QC from the brand Ocun a try. I used to love the Miura VS and also got on well with the Evolv Shaman, but find these even better, fit-wise. Obviously it's always down to foot shape/ personal preference, but they fit my feet (almost) perfectly. As well as being a great edging shoe, the heel also fits really well.

Also from Ocun and even stiffer is the Diamond, which is a lace-up. These were too hard and narrow for my feet, but fit the description of stiff and downturn. I'd imagine they'd be perfect on slightly overhanging edgy lime.

[cheque]

To the OP, you should give the Ozone QC from the brand Ocun a try... As well as being a great edging shoe, the heel also fits really well.

Plus they can sit within the inner bar of a court.

[andy_e]

I liked the look of their Kavanagh QCs but they didn't fit so well.

[Fultonius]

I reckon the jury's still out on that one.

[danm]

I’m on my 4th pair of recent build hiangles and I’ve got some Skwamas. These are next level hard to get on, I did the full plaggy bag / put them on in the bath and ended up just ripping the heel loop off. Not the only one either.

That said, very comfy and precise shoe once on…

I totally did not get on with my Skwamas, I found them really imprecise and hard to use on small holds, which was a surprise because I used to really get on with older models from La Sportiva, especially Miura and Katana for trad shoes. I think I prefer the flatter sole profile (in cross section) that you tend to get with Instincts.

[sinbad]

I've had both the UP TN Pro and Regulus and found the Regulus to be the stiffest. I've also had the Instinct Lace in the past which I'd say has a slightly stiffer toe but less supportive midsole. The Regulus has the Blanco style 'cheater' heel which I disliked until I got used to it...

Both the Regulus and TN Pro's are an absolute b@st*rd to get on, I partially ripped the pull tabs off the Regulus but sewed them up before they came right off. I also tried cutting the the elasticated material on the top of the shoe to open up the entry, didn't seem to make much difference. But as already said they were surprisingly comfortable once on. They hardly stretched at all over a very long life so getting them on and off never got much easier. I'd really like to replace the Regulus (personally I prefer them over the TN Pro) but I can't go through the hassle of fighting to get them again on so want to try 0.5 size larger. But then I'm worried they won't perform as well. 

[sinbad]

What is it that makes soft shoes better for indoor climbing?

Modern indoor bouldering = walking on plywood boxes and standing on fibreglass dinghies. Stiff tight shoes are about the worst thing you can have on your feet. Quite a lot of problems are easier to do in five tennies than in Miuras.

I used to believe this but have recently moved to stiff shoes indoors and found that on the majority of problems stiffer shoes out perform my softies. Obviously there are exceptions, some slopers (but not all...), very steep stuff and co-ordination dynos (but I'm pants at those anyway). I've encountered a few problems that I couldn't complete in my old, very soft Dragons, that I sent almost instantly in my Instinct Lace.

So now I almost exclusively boulder in stiff shoes and have a pair of softies tucked away in my bag for the occasional problem where I'm getting frustrated and think they may help. If someone had suggested this to me about 2 years ago I'd have thought they were raving mad...