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Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno (Read 18294 times)

shark

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It's all about the actual meaning of the grade not taking it as some trophy.

Top quality gibberish right there  :lol:

abarro81

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A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade.

This.
Climbers climb routes. Routes have grades to compare the easiest method to other routes (in a similar style and in theory other styles but we all know that doesn't work that well). Ascents do not have grades hence no extra grades for bad sequences, climbing with wet holds, humid conditions, sending in 35 degree heat, onsighting etc... even though these are all obviously harder and more impressive.

So Steve would have climbed a sequence of moves worth 9b difficulty but not a route graded 9b. Bit like someone campusing 1-5-9 has done a sequence of 8B(?) difficulty but not done a "problem" graded 8B; boulderers get around this by grading eliminates (e.g. weedkiller footless, X without the arete etc) but routes this is lame so doesn't really happen. So the answer is that it depends on what "climbing 9b" means to you - Is it about climbing a sequence of moves of a certain difficulty or about climbing a piece of rock that's harder than pieces of rock given 9a+... For me Steve would not have climbed 9b but would have done 9b of climbing (same as of you drop the easy last move on a 9b you've done a 9b worth of climbing but not done a 9b).


Progress: Josh and Eder ditched the first knee as not worth it. Second looks good, notionally no hands but not no hands on rp, could be a downgrade to 8c? Hard to tell just watching people on it and no idea how leg length dependent it is so I'll defer to eder (and Josh when he does it)

jwi

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For what it is worth, I wasn't very impressed with the Blak Pad. Neither with the new Sportiva one.

Fiend

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For me Steve would not have climbed 9b but would have done 9b of climbing
Christ's balls have you borrowed an electron microscope off Littlefair for that pedantic hair-splitting?? He's climbed 9b climbing but not 9b... James Pearson climbed E8 climbing for Dark Side sans pads, but not E8... :blink: What about the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law??

Also: what happens if a route changes inadvertantly after you've done it and the grade drops?? You climb an 8b. A crimp flake falls off leave a resting jug, and it's now 8a. Did you never climb 8b?? What the hell did you do when you climbed it?? "Climbed a section of rock that temporarily had a level of difficulty equivalent to 8b....but didn't actually climb 8b"

Also Shark I'm eagerly awaiting your logical, watertight counter-argument to "the meaning of a grade is describing the difficulty of a section of climbing"  :blink:
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 10:26:11 am by Fiend »

jwi

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Not really, climbers says stuff like "Route A is 8a to the 5th bolt, then a 7A boulder into sustained 7b climbing" all the time, but no one ever claims that they have a done an 8a route by climbing Route A up to the 5th bolt.

Rob F

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Not withstanding that it would probably come in as 8a+ if someone had got to the third bolt, traversed 4 moves into a 60% kneebar then got pumped getting back on line...

Fultonius

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When will knee pads have a "Reebok Pump" style shin length compensator (or just a "novel pouch") built in?

Where does it all end?

abarro81

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It's almost as if using more words to describe things makes it more accurate.. like "Bob did the first 9b in the UK, but it was later downgraded to 9a+ with a new sequence". Unless you're falling into the trap of thinking that grades are more than they are (ironically you made this point then fell headfirst into the same trap, partly by thinking they should describe how hard the sequence used was, not how hard the easiest sequence is; this isn't how it works hence not taking conditions or wet holds into account, at least in theory). IMO the "spirit" of the law would be ste gets bonus points for climbing a 9b sequence but it's not like climbing a 9b that stays as 9b. Or if Josh downgrades my new route to 8c with better beta can I just say fuck it and "claim" 9a anyway? No I just fucked up.

Like I said, it's quite possible to, for example, fall off the easy last move and have done a 9b of climbing without having done a 9b route. Not sure how that's hard to understand? Any sport climber knows the feeling of having done, say, 8a worth of climbing but binned the top like a punter so not having done the route that's graded 8a (especially on hard for the grade routes)

Things which break and change are different because the 8b did exist at some point.. the 9b never really did it was just waiting for good beta ;) I have sympathy for things done pre-kneepad here (so maybe before somewhere in the 2000-2005 region), so the back-in-the-day ascent is obvs more impressive, but again that's only an issue if you attach too much importance to "taking" a grade. For Rainman this isn't the case, Steve just missed the best beta. Same as I did on progress. The rock and equipment haven't changed substantially since he did the Rainman FA. Of course it's also possible that 90% of people find the knees useless and too technical or morpho to get them to work so the route stays the same grade even if some ascentionists think it's easier. Again not an issue unless we think grades are more than an average opinion about how hard it is to climb a bit of rock.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 10:59:23 am by abarro81 »

shark

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Also Shark I'm eagerly awaiting your logical, watertight counter-argument to "the meaning of a grade is describing the difficulty of a section of climbing"  :blink:

Barrows and Jonas have said it all. Don't know why you have to add “meaning” as if the grade is embued with something else that’s mysterious and a section isn’t given a grade.

You can chose to use grades to describe sections or sequences but it is only the route or problem that is assigned a grade and that grade is for the easiest method for the notionally average climber arrived at by consensus.

And yes climbing the route/problem is the trophy and the bigger the grade the bigger the trophy. Winning a game with excessive effort doesn’t get you a bigger trophy but it is something to chat about in the match analysis.


« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 11:52:23 am by shark »

Nike Air

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A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade.

Progress: Josh and Eder ditched the first knee as not worth it. Second looks good, notionally no hands but not no hands on rp, could be a downgrade to 8c? Hard to tell just watching people on it and no idea how leg length dependent it is so I'll defer to eder (and Josh when he does it)

Looked no hands on the red point I was watching.
Means you can stay in that shakeout for over a minute with also a bit of a handhold clock sequence involved at times.

Some routes do see many changes in their lifetime. Progress is one of them. Even the last year or was it the year before there was some issue with a new hold being created and then subsequently being filled in. It's the nature of North buttress unfortunately.
Maybe someone buy Ted a better knee pad and point out the position and he'll make them work.

 
It does pay to have an arsenal of different pads if you want to get serious, funny reading what some people think of various pads.
Jwi, what do you prefer?

Weirdly it seems to get more kudos finding a knee than actually doing a brick hard move. Guess that's just people suddenly thinking it's more of a possibility for them if that particular route was on their radar. Maybe?

I tried rainman whilst ste was involved in red point.
Think I'd just done batshadow so it was next on the radar.
We compared sequences as ste was interested if he'd missed anything. I came up with pretty much the same sequence. It's climbed annoyingly wrong handed on every hold from what I recall.

When my finger is better I'm keen to go back up there and see what the odd knee scum does. From the video clip I've seen Eder uses a different hand hold early on too what opens up a new window of sequence.
As to the knees on it Josh said to me he can't use them as his calves are not strong enough yet. They both have different sequences now from what I gather.
Its a type of route that's kind of 3 D in that there are lumps and bumps all over to try and utilize.

Anyway a bit of a ramble. Back to decorating now.

Rob F

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It definitely seems like there's a market for Lattice to employ a kneebar specialist coach???

It would also be handy for the BMC to do an educational vid of how a pro kneebar climber and an anti kneebar climber could have an amicable day at the crag without ending up having a punch up in the pub following...

Fiend

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It's almost as if using more words to describe things makes it more accurate.. like "Bob did the first 9b in the UK, but it was later downgraded to 9a+ with a new sequence".

So he DID do the 9b after all?? Excellent stuff, I agree. I can't really argue with that, but it's been a good laugh chaps  :smirk:

P.S. I used my first ever proper kneebar on a route the other day. Pretty crucial to climb it at the given grade (still a bit of a sandbag). No kneepad, minor grazes. HTH  :-[



36chambers

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Not really, climbers says stuff like "Route A is 8a to the 5th bolt, then a 7A boulder into sustained 7b climbing" all the time, but no one ever claims that they have a done an 8a route by climbing Route A up to the 5th bolt.

Just whack an anchor by that 5th bolt and job's a good 'un.


Doylo

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If Eder downgrades it to 9a+ but the next few blokes/gals can’t get all the knees and say it’s 9b does Eder still only ‘take’ 9a+?

‘What ya taking m8?’
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 07:08:02 am by Doylo »

Fultonius

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Are we not straying onto some well trodden paths here, akin to pure splitter cracks in the U.S. (Indian creek etc.) whereby, you may have a 5.12 thing finger crack, that's 5.11 for folks with super skinny fingers?

It then gets the average grade with a caveat about certain morphology reducing the grade.

That's said, shin length, while being important is maybe secondary to technique and familiarity? Which pushes me to the "it's 9a+ and the other ascentionists are just lacking...

Rob F

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I'm sure these 9a+/b kneebars will be perfectly tolerable if the suitors bring along their best cricket pads to the playing field...

remus

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If Eder downgrades it to 9a+ but the next few blokes/gals can’t get all the knees and say it’s 9b does Eder still only ‘take’ 9a+?

‘What ya taking m8?’

Just means he's climbed rainman and thought it was 9a+, but everyone else who's done it thought 9b. Just the usual process of grades going up and down as a route gets more ascents. Could be that the knees are a game changer and even Eder's grandma can get a no-hands and knit a doily on the knee, or it could turn out to be super knacky/morpho and no one else can get it to work, just needs more ascents before the grade settles down.

jwi

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Not really, climbers says stuff like "Route A is 8a to the 5th bolt, then a 7A boulder into sustained 7b climbing" all the time, but no one ever claims that they have a done an 8a route by climbing Route A up to the 5th bolt.

Just whack an anchor by that 5th bolt and job's a good 'un.

Yes.

This is rarely done except at the very highest levels though.... (Alex Huber and Arnaud Petit, we are looking at you)

jwi

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Jwi, what do you prefer?

The big Send pad, but I am no aficionado. My mate loved the Blak Pad and immediately sold his send pad after trying them the first time – I liked the closing mechanism in theory but in practice I could not get them to stick. Garro are well designed but has rubbish rubber imho, La Sportiva doesn't stick to my leg without spray-glue and gaffa tape but seem high quality otherwise, the third Spanish brand (name escapes me) is good but the rubber is too thick unless you are planning to kneebar a spike.

Unless the rock is sharp I find that short pants and chalk on the leg is maybe best if there is only one knee bar on the route.

Wellsy

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Maybe grades don't matter and it was all about the friends/acquaintances/dubious bastards/hated rivals we made along the way

shark

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If Eder downgrades it to 9a+ but the next few blokes/gals can’t get all the knees and say it’s 9b does Eder still only ‘take’ 9a+?

‘What ya taking m8?’

Just means he's climbed rainman and thought it was 9a+, but everyone else who's done it thought 9b. Just the usual process of grades going up and down as a route gets more ascents. Could be that the knees are a game changer and even Eder's grandma can get a no-hands and knit a doily on the knee, or it could turn out to be super knacky/morpho and no one else can get it to work, just needs more ascents before the grade settles down.

Quite. A climber will often find a route a grade easier for them for any number of reasons  but usually because they are tall bastards

Doylo

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Maybe Eder’s the climber having the most fun.

spidermonkey09

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Eder is a knee genius. From his description of them one would be forgiven for thinking they're all piss easy jug kneebars but they definitely aren't!  :lol: He's also using a different, more leftwards sequence on Rainman I believe which Steve (and Josh) identified but decided not to use because it became much more plausible to traverse to the Rainshadow ledge for a rest if you went this way. Apologies if any of the above is wrong. (check with Steve shark!)

It's great the shakeup Eder is giving the scene in Yorkshire and changing the way people look at the routes (He is unfeasibly good at kneebarring and has an unbelievably strong core and legs (he can jump really really high!)  The progress handhold /foothold incident was clearly just a sign of things to come!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 09:07:20 pm by spidermonkey09 »

spidermonkey09

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Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

Yes, obviously. A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade. Also, Steve should in this hypothetical situation be a bit ashamed of himself for not finding better sequences after having spend ages on the route.

This is probably tongue in cheek and I'm just missing the nuance but seems a bit uncalled for.

Wellsy

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Maybe Eder’s the climber having the most fun.

What a bastard

 

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