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Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno (Read 18293 times)

Nike Air

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Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???

Surely the only appropriate feeling when someone finds a better sequence is shame? Shame for lack of vision and ability?

Think I tick all three boxes

Bradders

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Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???

Surely the only appropriate feeling when someone finds a better sequence is shame? Shame for lack of vision and ability?

See, this is where we differ. I would think, in the case of Doylo having done the Louis move the harder way, despite not having done the problem, the appropriate emotion is pride.

Doylo

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So this Louis knee also needs someone with long arms or wide shoulders?

It’s too spanned for midgets with or without. No midgets ever done it. JackPal tried it some ridiculous way, using the knee to get set up but then ridiculous release to lip.


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See, this is where we differ. I would think, in the case of Doylo having done the Louis move the harder way, despite not having done the problem, the appropriate emotion is pride.

Always a good feeling to do it and feel strong but was all for nothing in end. Did move over 40 times on own. Crux to end over 20 times .  Once from a move back but hardly ever close adding two more moves. Took me too long to get there, 18 seconds to do 3 moves (!) had to do loads of shuffling. Makes Shark look like Speedy Gonzales.  Watching other beasts they got to the crux 4/5 seconds quicker. Cave snail.

Kneepads do make an extremely satisfying crackling noise when you chuck them on the bonfire.

 

MischaHY

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Surely the answer to the question of 'should I use the knee' is 'does it make the problem/route absolutely wank'. If not, smash on the kneepad. If so, then probably it's more fun without.

Example: I found a kneebar on Battle Cat in Frankenjura that means you can do the first crux completely static and probably downgrades the route. I probably won't use that kneebar because it takes the fun out. Good Moves for Bad Beta?

jwi

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as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

36chambers

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as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Are you saying that you shouldn't take the original pre-kneepad grade on a climb if you climb it without a kneepad?

If I went and climbed Louis Armstrong without the knee bar I'd certainly take the 8B tick. (unless it blatantly apparent it's not 8B for my body size, but that's a separate issue entirely.)

AMorris

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I can totally appreciate how varying beta can totally change your psyche for a problem. I had a similar experience on Flick of the Wrist. The thing that attracted me to the problem was the low foot power move off the pinch, having seen Chris Davies and Tyler smash it. I found out after trying it that there is a heelhook out left, which looks like it turns that sequence into a set of unpleasant lurchy moves. I vowed that I would do it the original (I think?) way since that was the move that inspired me to get on it in the first place.

You get out of climbing what you put in. No one gives you a medal for doing things the "hard" way, but nor do you get one for finding ways to get your weight off your fingers. All you get is a bit of satisfaction at doing a move in a way which you found enjoyable.

This debate reminds me of the eternal shouting match between guitarists. You have two camps screaming at each other, one saying "this shredder has no feeling", and the others saying "speed doesn't mean no feeling". The existence of both of these groups has not in any way held the progress of guitar back.

Doylo

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It’s all just killing time til you die.

abarro81

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Battle cat is 8c anyway so noone should be taking 8c+  :lol: that first crux is probably the easiest of the 3 too so I doubt a knee makes it b+

Bradders

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as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Absolute nonsense. On both points.

tomtom

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It’s all just killing time til you die.

Amen brother.

abarro81

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as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Absolute nonsense. On both points.

Its not though. On both points. Just look at someone good like that Jorge chap.

On the #biggradesforbadbeta maybe on boulders eliminates are more part of the game but fuck eliminates on routes and fuck technique elimination full stop.

AMorris

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as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Absolute nonsense. On both points.

Its not though. On both points. Just look at someone good like that Jorge chap.

On the #biggradesforbadbeta maybe on boulders eliminates are more part of the game but fuck eliminates on routes and fuck technique elimination full stop.

Ever seen a gecko kneebarring its way up a wall? Nah me neither. Case closed.

sarcasm, if anyone was wondering

countyyoungin

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Does anyone know how this knee bar worked? I’m around Llandudno tomorrow and having done the original method I’d be intrigued to try it out to see if I can do it this way. I know Joe’s a big lad and his body strength is probably better than mine so could be interesting to see if it works better for all.

I’ve also done sack shit in the way of knee bars, so I may also just be rubbish at them

jwi

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On the #biggradesforbadbeta maybe on boulders eliminates are more part of the game but fuck eliminates on routes and fuck technique elimination full stop.

A mate did Brother from another mother (or similar, don't remember exactly) in Indian Creek as a layback. He took 8c instead of 7a+

36chambers

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as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Absolute nonsense. On both points.

Its not though. On both points. Just look at someone good like that Jorge chap.

On the #biggradesforbadbeta maybe on boulders eliminates are more part of the game but fuck eliminates on routes and fuck technique elimination full stop.

What's the craic if say Ondra and Megos swoop in to Malham, repeat Rainman and both confirm 9b, but then a week later someone else repeats it after finding 12 new kneebars and declares it only 8c. Do Steve, Ondra, and Megos have to hand back there 9b ticks?

Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

I'm obviously of the opinion that any original sequeniest (pre and post kneebar downgrade) have climb 9b. Curious what others think about this?

Fiend

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The pitfalls of over-fixation on ticking, taking, and attaining. A grade isn't there to "take" - it's there to give an approximate consensussed estimate of difficulty and thus challenge to a climber. Would Ste Megondra have climbed a 9b level of difficulty?? Obviously. It's only a question if one has a skewed perspective of the meaning of grades.

On a similar note I get where Doylog is coming from. There's some pretty polarised views around - "kneebars ruin historical climbs and should be banned" vs "kneebars are a brilliant advancement of technique that nullify previous ascents and any elimination of them should be banned". Both bollox of course, the truth as always is in between. They, including widespread kneepad usage, are another tool in the climbers arsenal, there to be used, but the desire for usage will depend on what the climber desires out of climbing. In Doylo's case it's obviously the beauty of the movement in the *ahem* Cave *lol* and the challenge of a sequence and that happens to be an inspiration without kneebarring. Just like Keen Youth and his desire to do his grit new routes without boulderpads, presumably for personal challenge and having the context of prior padless routes.

Similarly with both types of pads, the only issue is one of communication and description. Padded / padless split grades are logical, you know what challenge you are getting depending on the style you choose. Of course just like bouldering mats becoming entirely ubiquitous, current and future climbs will be done kneebarred, that will be the default challenge and description, and the barless challenge might not be described at all (or might be done later on who knows).



« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 09:43:23 pm by Fiend »

remus

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What's the craic if say Ondra and Megos swoop in to Malham, repeat Rainman and both confirm 9b, but then a week later someone else repeats it after finding 12 new kneebars and declares it only 8c. Do Steve, Ondra, and Megos have to hand back there 9b ticks?

Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

I'm obviously of the opinion that any original sequeniest (pre and post kneebar downgrade) have climb 9b. Curious what others think about this?

You'd get the '8c with bad beta' tick  :whistle:

On a more serious note, I think people generally recognise and appreciate the difficulty of something that's been done even if an easier method is subsequently found. For example everyone knows Malc is a beast for doing Pilgrimage with his sequence even though a better sequence now exists.

Doylo

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Does anyone know how this knee bar worked? I’m around Llandudno tomorrow and having done the original method I’d be intrigued to try it out to see if I can do it this way. I know Joe’s a big lad and his body strength is probably better than mine so could be interesting to see if it works better for all.

I’ve also done sack shit in the way of knee bars, so I may also just be rubbish at them

I bet it’ll be harder for you. In the time it takes you to wedge it in you’d be at the end the original way. Not like you found it too hard.

jwi

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Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

Yes, obviously. A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade. Also, Steve should in this hypothetical situation be a bit ashamed of himself for not finding better sequences after having spend ages on the route.

shark

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Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

Yes, obviously. A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade. Also, Steve should in this hypothetical situation be a bit ashamed of himself for not finding better sequences after having spend ages on the route.

Steve did put in a lot of time on one session trying to make the kneebar rest work but in the end wrote it off (I was belaying when he tried).

Talking to Haydn yesterday Eder gets a no hands from it and it helps on the  move above and he uses another kneebar higher up on Rainman that makes Steve’s go, go and go again move a lot easier. Apparently he uses some Spanish brand (black something ?) which like the new Sportiva one gives better knee coverage which make big difference on some of the new kneebars he is using. He is also some kind of knee genius.

It does sound like a proposed downgrade is in the offing if he ticks it (which sounds highly likely) especially given the short time that he has spent on the route and how high he’s got. Whether a downgrade sticks then depends if others can make these kneebars work for them which doesn’t sound like a given.

Doylo

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Oooo sounds like Steve might be starting his own bonfire soon  :ohmy:
Tiny bit more significant if RM comes down... I’d need to be put on suicide watch if that happened to me after 125 days on something.

remus

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Steve did put in a lot of time on one session trying to make the kneebar rest work but in the end wrote it off (I was belaying when he tried).

Talking to Haydn yesterday Eder gets a no hands from it and it helps on the  move above and he uses another kneebar higher up on Rainman that makes Steve’s go, go and go again move a lot easier. Apparently he uses some Spanish brand (black something ?) which like the new Sportiva one gives better knee coverage which make big difference on some of the new kneebars he is using.

It's interesting that there's such a disparity in how much use they get out of the knee rest.

This is probably the knee pad you're talking about https://www.instagram.com/blak_pad/ They do look good but I don't think anyone in rifle would marvel at the knee coverage. The homemade pads that people wear have had good knee coverage for ~forever, poor knee coverage is mainly a thing with the more recently released pads like the send, and even then you can fairly easily wear those low on the leg for better knee coverage (leave the third strap undone).

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He is also some kind of knee genius.

I do wonder how much of it is that he's putting the time in to try knees where people haven't bothered before. No doubt he's better than the average brit, but I can't imagine many people bother hoiking a pad up most routes at malham to spend half an hour fiddling around.

Fiend

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Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

Yes, obviously. A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade.

That "Yes obviously" better not be in reply to Steve Mac never climbing 9b, because that would some top quality gibberish if so  :o

A route has a grade, that grade describes the level of difficulty for the sequence used,  if you climbed that level of difficulty then you climbed that grade.  It's all about the actual meaning of the grade not taking it as some trophy.

shark

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He is also some kind of knee genius.
I do wonder how much of it is that he's putting the time in to try knees where people haven't bothered before. No doubt he's better than the average brit, but I can't imagine many people bother hoiking a pad up most routes at malham to spend half an hour fiddling around.

Sounds like a lot of factors come in to play as whether these ‘new’ kneebars offer benefit which is not just dependent on type of pad and how practised you are at them but also other factors as to whether they fit your style of climbing and knee length.

Ted told me that he’d tried out Eder’s kneebars on Progress. He said he’s too tall for the first one (which involves the second leg bracing the first leg in place!) The second involves 4 extra foot moves into and out of it in the middle of the redpoint crux and for him the recovery benefit was outweighed by the extra climbing to get in and out of the kneebar. Also Ted could only get 60% of his bodyweight from the kneebar whereas Josh can take both hands off though I don’t whether they were using the same types of pad or just that Josh is better at kneebarring.




« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 09:00:38 am by shark »

 

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