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Extending a bolt with a long sling to avoid a run-out on a sport route?? (Read 5273 times)

Fiend

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The issue of the decade year week well this evening at least....

mrjonathanr

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Two blindingly obvious points.
1 bolts are arbitrarily placed for convenience. So do whatever you like.
2 you’re a wuss :)

Rob F

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I have seen someone of this parish using around a 30 quickdraw daisy chain to lessen the new dawn runout.

They are welcome to fess up if they so wish :-)

kingholmesy

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Pink Anasazi.

Oh - and a super long draw plus also then a short one on the same bolt is perfectly legit.

remus

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For me the point of sport climbing is that you don't have to worry so much about whether you're gonna deck out or if the gear (bolts in this case) is hard to sort out. If that's what I wanted I'd go trad climbing.

moose

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Some routes are just badly bolted.  Dreamtime at Kilnsey used to be one - most of the bolts were around a 0.5-1 metres out of the line and most people (including me) massively extended them (some supposedly even taped extenders sideways to the rock).  That route has, since then, been re-bolted more sensibly.  To me, extending clips on a badly bolted route is fair game - chances are you are just foreshadowing a future re-bolt. 

I suppose that stance could be corrupted - by someone extending clips to allow "off route" climbing, to avoid hard moves.  But if someone's the type who would extend clips to go "off route", they'd probably be resting on the rope and grabbing the chains anyway!

teestub

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It’s always interested in these conversations that people end up talking about ‘memorable clips’ on poorly bolted routes, and thinking that other people should have the same experience. I can only assume that these people are frustrated trad climbers, that have somehow found sport climbing filling up the majority of their climbing time, and are perhaps one annual red point failure away from turning to Walshes or Ultegra.

The bouldering equivalent is the people who only really like boulder problems that are small trad solos.

abarro81

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There are a few sport routes where run-outs are worthwhile and should be preserved, but these are relatively few and far between IMO, and generally big long majestic things (Groove Train, Black Bean, Tom et je ris) not the kind of thing we have much of in the UK. Usually it's just poor bolting.

Andy F

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There are definitely run outs on sport routes that are historic and add to the character (Supercool headwall, Revelations, Frankie comes to Kilnsey etc). The New Dawn run out isn't actually that bad and adds to the experience. But bad bolting needs sorting as happened to Dreamtime.

Bradders

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For me the point of sport climbing is that you don't have to worry so much about whether you're gonna deck out or if the gear (bolts in this case) is hard to sort out. If that's what I wanted I'd go trad climbing.

Absolutely.

This is one of those things where it makes no difference to anyone but the person doing the thing, so the correct answer is to remind yourself you're there to have fun, then do whatever the hell you want.

Bonjoy

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Any and all extending of clips in sport climbing is legit (so long at it's not being used to stray off line etc.). It might sometimes degrade the experience of the ascent, but it doesn't have bearing on the legitimacy.

The only additional bolt I can remember being sad to see go into a sport route was the one added to the upper groove of The Thumb/Urgent Action back in the day. Prior to that it was a very long, but very safe runout which was pretty exciting and I thought added to the overall fun/classic nature of the routes.

spidermonkey09

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There are definitely run outs on sport routes that are historic and add to the character (Supercool headwall, Revelations, Frankie comes to Kilnsey etc). The New Dawn run out isn't actually that bad and adds to the experience. But bad bolting needs sorting as happened to Dreamtime.

Supercool doesn't have a runout on it. Frankie is just sparsely bolted rather than having a single runout section.

Any and all extending of clips in sport climbing is legit (so long at it's not being used to stray off line etc.). It might sometimes degrade the experience of the ascent, but it doesn't have bearing on the legitimacy.

This is it in a nutshell. Its down to ones personal view of 'the experience;' a nebulous term. I do think the frisson you get as you match, say, the slopey ledge on ND at the end of the runout is worth trying to preserve, but equally it sounds like similar feeling used to exist on Urgent and Supercool and doesn't anymore (to the same extent at least). I won't miss it on those routes, because I never knew them before. That said, Alex brings up Groove Train as an example of runouts worth preserving; I loved climbing on Taipan but there was a definitely a mixture of downright shoddy bolt placement to go with the characterful runouts! All academic for that crag anyway now its banned  :wavecry:

Basically, whilst its fun harassing Will for extending the draw on ND and I think he'd remember the route for longer if he didn't, its totally fair game to extend it if he or anyone else wants. Its equally fair game for people who value the experience runouts give to take the piss. Whats not fair game is saying any extended ascents don't count, cause they definitely do. Chain grabs on the other hand... :worms: :lol:

Fatboyslimfast2

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Fuck me have I strayed onto UKC by mistake........Fiend the Maccy Ds I can forgive but this.....

cheque

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Will Hunt

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Isn't it strange that nobody is reaching for the tissues when thinking about the loss of the Obsession runout? These things are "part of the essential experience of the crag" until, one day, they're not. And then nobody really cares. Why? Because they're still great routes.

I don't really care about being baited about the New Dawn thing. It only serves to highlight the cognitive dissonance of the detractors. If the extra clip made it harder then I'd skip it. As it is, you do it from a knee bar rest. It makes it stacks easier to dog that section.

Bonjoy

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I don't remember a runout on Obsession. It obviously wasn't that memorable (or big).

petejh

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I also don't remember any runout on Obsession.

I agree with Alex, for the average sport climber runouts only add to the overall quality of a route when they're on long 'majestic' routes with safe fall zones. There aren't many in the UK but there are some - a few on the Diamond and elsewhere in N.Wales. Routes on the Wall of Evening Light wall are 30-odd metres and I think anyone capable of climbing the routes would agree runouts add to the experience higher up where there's nothing to clatter. (ahem.. on my own routes 'Shine On' on the Diamond and Red Meat on Pen y Gogarth I deliberately included somewhat runout cruxy moves around 28 metres up on exposed headwalls with nothing but air to fall into.) On more typical length routes runouts are a pain for the onsight sport climber and work against the onsight skills that sport climbing is best suited for - physical ability and willingness to really go for it on hard moves in relative safety.

 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 10:27:07 am by petejh »

csl

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Just to chime in with Alex/Pete etc - generally when I've found bolting adds the experience it's because it's all sparsely bolted (and safely at that) not just one runout section, Blocage Violent in Ceuse is a great example of this.

The "counts/doesn't count" thing is nonsense isn't it, who really cares what someone else has decided to do (chain grabs/top roping etc included) when climbing something which is so far off the top level?

Bonjoy

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The "counts/doesn't count" thing is nonsense isn't it, who really cares what someone else has decided to do (chain grabs/top roping etc included) when climbing something which is so far off the top level?
I wouldn't go that far. A chain grab is different to extending a bolt. The former means you miss out some of the moves/difficulty, the latter doesn't. Anyone can climb anything in any style they want, and miss as many moves as they want, but saying they've climbed the route at the given grade afterwards is a different matter. There has to be some basic standard (i.e. an agreed meaning of what is meant by a clean lead), and for a sport route that equals doing all the moves in one go and clipping the chain. That applies, whatever the grade.

csl

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but saying they've climbed the route at the given grade afterwards is a different matter. There has to be some basic standard (i.e. an agreed meaning of what is meant by a clean lead), and for a sport route that equals doing all the moves in one go and clipping the chain. That applies, whatever the grade.

Yes, if you want to tell other people about your achievements and bask in the glory, but if you had decided that you were happy to call a clean top rope an ascent of a route and didn't try and dress it up as anything else then I think thats fine.

spidermonkey09

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Yes, if you want to tell other people about your achievements and bask in the glory, but if you had decided that you were happy to call a clean top rope an ascent of a route and didn't try and dress it up as anything else then I think thats fine.

Thats just not the way things are though. By the accepted rules of the game that Bonjoy alludes to, a clean toprope of a route is not an ascent by anyone else's standard. People are welcome to tell themselves they climbed it but its a bit futile when by every accepted standard they haven't; its just a delusion. Just because one isn't having articles written about ones ascents in the media isn't a reason to be fast and loose with what we all know is an ascent surely?

Thats quite clumsily worded but what I suppose I am getting at is that just because someone feels like they have climbed something doesn't mean they actually have. Its a bit like the discussion about 'individual truths' on another thread; there is a line at which point someone saying 'this is true' becomes demonstrably false and hence untrue. Equally, someone saying 'I made an ascent of this route' whereas in reality they top rope dogged it and pulled on the gear, is also untrue even if they think/say they 'did' it.

I completely agree with you about Blocage; what a route!

Duma

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All of this is missing the main scandal of mediocre sport climbing - how many bolts can you pre clip and still claim an ascent?

To which the answer is:
1 - Yes
2 - Maybe, if the moves are hard and would risk a decking
3 - No

Will Hunt

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I never experienced the runout on Obsession. I only know it from being told about it and it being mentioned in past guides, so it must have been there at some point. There's definitely been an extra bolt added to the upper section.

shark

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I thought the runout was ok and characterful but I was mainly a trad climber at that point. Someone took a bad fall and following that someone else decided to put an extra bolt in.

Rob F

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For the record, I have never seen Will on New Dawn / it were someone else.

I think that everyone would be perfectly happy if Will were to use an 18cm draw over a 10cm or 12cm if he see's fit to do so...

+Much more respect who's personal ethics are so fine tuned to allow
for a monster whipper over the chain grab...

 

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