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How to improve by doing no training (Read 11936 times)

abarro81

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I think it's much more useful to think of training as 'stuff I do to get better at climbing', which can and should include lots of time on terrain similar to the stuff you want to improve on.

I don't think that's useful at all. In response to the fact that the best training for climbing is climbing you're just reframing training to include climbing. Where does that leave climbing? Is the only 'proper' climbing then what you do on your project?

The useful distinction to me is between praxis and practise. if you have limited opportunities to get out on rock, or have specific weaknesses you want to work, then training is useful. But doing the thing (praxis) will pretty much always trump doing an abstract reduction of the thing (practise).

Your distinction (and most distinctions) doesn't work either, because this is a spectrum (or a variety of spectra) not two distinct things. Timed intervals on a campus board with the goal of improving for outdoor routes is clearly "training". Trying to RP your proj is clearly "climbing". But what's running laps outdoors at the end of the day to build fitness? Or choosing to boulder outside as a strategic choice to build strength for your proj? What about if I do my timed an cap at the tor? What about if I'm a comp climber doing comp problems indoors in a non-comp setting? What about if I'm just messing around on a campus board or fingerboard for fun but with no real target of improving for "climbing"? I'd say it's pretty clear that any attempt to break these things into two distinct categories is doomed to fail miserably.

jwi

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I think it's much more useful to think of training as 'stuff I do to get better at climbing', which can and should include lots of time on terrain similar to the stuff you want to improve on.

I don't think that's useful at all. In response to the fact that the best training for climbing is climbing you're just reframing training to include climbing. Where does that leave climbing? Is the only 'proper' climbing then what you do on your project?

The useful distinction to me is between praxis and practise. if you have limited opportunities to get out on rock, or have specific weaknesses you want to work, then training is useful. But doing the thing (praxis) will pretty much always trump doing an abstract reduction of the thing (practise).

So what would you call doing laps (with our without timed rests) on a route outdoors?

shark

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The useful distinction to me is between praxis and practise.

So what would you call doing laps (with our without timed rests) on a route outdoors?

Show ponying

jwi

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fair enough

Nutty

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I suspect it isn’t Steve who is confused as he knows what other ‘names’ get up to in terms of their on-rock/in-the-gym activity.

However, the audience who are less in the know seeing a massive bias in content featuring feats of strength from top athletes might draw poor conclusions on how to improve.

I think it’s good that Steve has stuck his head above the parapet in an attempt to redress the balance and ‘start a conversation’ as politicians say.
Steve's pretty confused about his own on-rock/in-the-gym activity. Apparently by the 8th May he'd spent three months this year fingerboarding and months (plural!) since around Easter (4th April) climbing outside on rock. Where's he getting the extra month(s) from? If he wants to show you can improve without training (specifically on a fingerboard) I wouldn't use an example of doing a route using two small holds previously discounted/overlooked as unusable after having done a 3 month block of fingerboarding.

shark

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If Steve feels the need to step in to avoid impressionable youths getting the wrong idea then that’s taking a pretty dim view of people’s intelligence.

Not sure why you have to drag intelligence into it. If you are new to climbing and your role models all seem to be focussing on strength training it would be natural to follow suit.

As Tom J observed:

The gym I've been climbing at this year is full of bright eyed, psyched 20 somethings who've typically been climbing for a year or two, largely indoors, and have simply shocking technique. Its common for these kids to ask me if they would be better off campusing, fingerboarding or working on their cores in their quest for improvement.

Johnny Brown

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The useful distinction to me is between praxis and practise.

So what would you call doing laps (with our without timed rests) on a route outdoors?

Show ponying

🤣

Johnny Brown

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Your distinction (and most distinctions) doesn't work either, because this is a spectrum (or a variety of spectra) not two distinct things. Timed intervals on a campus board with the goal of improving for outdoor routes is clearly "training". YES
Trying to RP your proj is clearly "climbing". YES
But what's running laps outdoors at the end of the day to build fitness? CLIMBING
Or choosing to boulder outside as a strategic choice to build strength for your proj? CLIMBING
What about if I do my timed an cap at the tor? CLIMBING
What about if I'm a comp climber doing comp problems indoors in a non-comp setting? INDOOR CLIMBING
What about if I'm just messing around on a campus board or fingerboard for fun but with no real target of improving for "climbing"? NOT CLIMBING

SA Chris

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I think the answer for the last one should be c) None of the Above :)

Wellsy

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I've been climbing for about 18 months including lockdown, mostly indoors, and my technique is probably shocking, but I do think that indoor climbing does help. The timing moves, deadpointing, ability to generate power while your body is in a weird position, balance, precision of feet... that's all stuff I am improving at, is directly relevant to outdoor climbing, and came from indoor climbing. The first time I ever went outdoors I did a 6B... and before I started climbing I 100% wouldn't have fucking touched it. At all. So it must mean something.

tomtom

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All about transference.

Fingerboarding makes you better at fingerboarding - and as a side effect might help you hold smaller holes outside for longer. Etc…

abarro81

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I've had a few of the old
Steve: "I've not climbed or trained for a month"
Me: "hmm, thought I saw you at the tor last week and the foundry the week before that"
interactions in the past. I think Steve is definitely prone to using artistic licence with his lack of climbing and/or training at times.

JB: so training is only training if it's fundamentally different to the core activity. I.e. marathon runners aren't training when they go running, and road cyclists aren't training if they're on a bike. Only when they go swimming or to the gym. I certainly wouldn't use the term in that way, because I don't think it's actually instructive of, well, anything. If indoor climbing can't be training then I must have done those hour long ARC sessions for the pure joy of it. Even I've not got that high a boredom threshold  :lol:
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 11:36:50 am by shark »

mrjonathanr

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If indoor climbing can't be training then I must have done those hour long ARC sessions for the pure joy of it. Even I've not got that high a boredom threshold  :lol:

Looking back now, would you do them again? And if not, why not?

abarro81

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Yeah, I'd do them if I could. Nowadays I just juggle and powerball my way to fitness.

mrjonathanr

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On a unicycle for Olympic levels of core stability I hope.

Rob F

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Back to the seriousness. Surely outdoor climbing is something that you do when having a rest day from foot on campussing?

webbo

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Back to the seriousness. Surely outdoor climbing is something that you do when having a rest day from foot on campussing?
I thought it was something you did when your other half has blocked access to your board with furniture so they can decorate.

Bradders

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I've had a few of the old
Steve: "I've not climbed or trained for a month"
Me: "hmm, thought I saw you at the tor last week and the foundry the week before that"
interactions in the past. I think Steve is definitely prone to using artistic licence with his lack of climbing and/or training at times.

Haha yes I noticed that, for example watching the video about the new 8c+ he did with Buster Martin in which he claims never to have climbed on a board, yet there are photos of him doing exactly that from very early in his career!

Generally he seems to be extremely self-deprecating, which he has acknowledged can be quite annoying just as over-confidence and an inflated sense of self-importance can be.

Lots of people are like this though, I can think of quite a few where if you asked them what training they did they'd say "not a lot", despite climbing on a board 3/4 times a week.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 10:58:56 am by shark »

moose

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He probably used to say he never revised for exams... but had complex, colour-coded revision planners on the wall months in advance and ring-binders of indexed notes.

SA Chris

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They would all be infinitely better off doing a bunch of 5.10/.11's than mucking about on a fingerboard. Some of them employ coaches who they see through zoom and who design 'personalized' training regimens for them... It's a farce really, and that seems to be what Mclure is railing against.

I can't recall where I first heard the phrase "technically dense" but it seems to apply here.

For an online coach, it's easy to copy and paste "personalised" regimes to dozens of climbers, and monitor quantified gainz. Reviewing and critiquing movement and technique less so.

Johnny Brown

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JB: so training is only training if it's fundamentally different to the core activity. I.e. marathon runners aren't training when they go running, and road cyclists aren't training if they're on a bike. Only when they go swimming or to the gym. I certainly wouldn't use the term in that way, because I don't think it's actually instructive of, well, anything. If indoor climbing can't be training

That's not the point, and I didn't say or imply that climbing can't be training, but that it remains climbing first and foremost whether or not you treat it as training. Your comp climber for example, wouldn't you need to ask her if she is training or not? Or does the fact they compete sometimes require that all other activity be classed only as training? It doesn't matter though; either way they both are climbing. The point of Steve's article is basically the old line that climbing is the best training for climbing, and this remains true whether or not you treat it as training or just climbing. Perhaps a better way of looking at a definition would be whether an onlooker would be justified in saying 'that's not climbing'. The vast majority of punters Steve is targeting would be better doing something that resembles climbing than something that doesn't.

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then I must have done those hour long ARC sessions for the pure joy of it. Even I've not got that high a boredom threshold 

This is the nub of it isn't it? Anyone that has sacrificed time and energy into long boring training sessions need to believe that that time could not have been spent just as productively doing more enjoyable activity, so you're desperate to class other people's activity as training even if it isn't. I've had this loads of times - 'he doesn't train', 'bollocks, all those laps of x or y are definitely training'. They definitely weren't, I just do them because I enjoy it. Any training benefit is an unintended side effect. Of course someone could do the exact same laps as intentional training (for what, I've no idea), but that still doesn't make my laps training. They are both climbing though. Is ARC climbing? (I've genuinely no idea if it's traversing or weights or burpees or some other onanism).

But the bigger point is that Steve's article was probably not aimed at people climbing 9a despite career-ending injuries forcing them to seek out a whole new hobby. Kilnsey's gain is psychogeography's loss.

remus

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JB, the way I see it you've been training all these years but just can't stand to admit it to yourself. Just because you're having fun doesn't mean you're not training :lol:

Paul B

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I'd disagree. JB's activities certainly have their benefit but you can't claim any form of structure or goal (or certainly one I've ever heard him articulate)

I remember reading this from Mark Rippetoe, the context being why he lost interest in Crossfit.

Quote from: Mark Rippetoe
Exercise and training are two different things. Exercise is physical activity for its own sake, a workout done for the effect it produces today, during the workout or right after you’re through. Training is physical activity done with a longer-term goal in mind, the constituent workouts of which are specifically designed to produce that goal. If a program of physical activity is not designed to get you stronger or faster or better conditioned by producing a specific stress to which a specific desirable adaptation can occur, you don’t get to call it training. It is just exercise. For most people, exercise is perfectly adequate – it’s certainly better than sitting on your ass.


remus

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I'd disagree. JB's activities certainly have their benefit but you can't claim any form of structure or goal (or certainly one I've ever heard him articulate)

Sorry, my post was a joke, not a serious point!

I agree with what you're saying though, I think training is more about the intent of improving your technique/fitness/whatever with a goal in mind than whatever form that training might take.

 

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