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Pearson and Ciavaldini piss off some cavers (Read 6514 times)

Bradders

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Fair dos. Lost in internet translation  :thumbsup:

petejh

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I think you've both gone a bit wrong here; their job isn't "just going climbing" or "selling a dream". Their job is to advertise products made by the companies who employ them, to people who might want to use those products, and it just happens that one of the ways of doing that is going climbing and taking photos of themselves doing that activity. If you've misinterpreted that as them selling a dream of a certain lifestyle then that's your problem, not theirs.

Edit: that probably comes across a bit strong. It's totally understandable and one of the big problems with social media, but it is true.

No I get that Bradders (got it a long time ago). It's why I said this earlier:
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... a couple of well-known and well-followed goretex jacket salespeople insta-spraying...

As I've made pretty obvious, with some caveats I find it an absurd and troubling concept, the job of being a *clothing & equipment salesperson via the medium of climbing. To me, all the compromises this role brings make it the antithesis of what outdoor recreation is about. I believe most climbers would agree where they to stop and analyse what the great things are about having adventures in the outdoors.


*Professional climber

Johnny Brown

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their job isn't "just going climbing" or "selling a dream". Their job is to advertise products made by the companies who employ them, to people who might want to use those products, and it just happens that one of the ways of doing that is going climbing and taking photos of themselves doing that activity. If you've misinterpreted that as them selling a dream of a certain lifestyle then that's your problem, not theirs.

I think this summary is equally wrong. They get paid for promoting products yes. However they only get to promote products because they've already created a platform to sell them from. Creating and maintaining that platform absolutely involves selling a dream of a lifestyle in return for likes and more exposure. And creating the platform by selling the dream must come first, because without it the product placement is worthless.

SA Chris

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Jeez, I didn't say or mean to imply that. Did nobody notice 'cos from where I'm standing nannies are the preserve of the cosseted super-rich'. Maybe it's just me.

Surprised a public school boy would even comment when you all had several.... (big ;)).

Alex-the-Alex

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I think this summary is equally wrong. They get paid for promoting products yes. However they only get to promote products because they've already created a platform to sell them from. Creating and maintaining that platform absolutely involves selling a dream of a lifestyle in return for likes and more exposure. And creating the platform by selling the dream must come first, because without it the product placement is worthless.

Something similar could be said for guiding though. Half the industry is built on selling the dream of being a guide via MLs and RCI awards. And at just as much risk of comodifying climbing. There's only a few James Pearson's, though admittedly they have a wide reach. There's a whole load of guide companies on the ground with just as many excuses to bend ethics for profit and ease. It's just easier and more fun bashing James.

petejh

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It's just as easy to bash the guiding industry. I think it actually goes on frequently on a local scale. I haven't checked, but I bet if you went through ukc forums over a normal year you'd find tens or hundreds of public-calling-out of shitty or inappropriate guiding/instructing behaviour - I'm thinking 'disgusted of Northhampton, guided group at Stanage last weekend' type stuff. This is exactly the same thing as calling out someone well-known. Just no-one really cares about the guides in the bigger picture because the bigger picture isn't aware of them. Guiding misdemeanours are in general more localized in scale and piss off local climbers more  I'm also thinking inappropriate belay or abseil bolts on popular alpine and trad routes in the alps etc. Thing is they tend to publicise themselves less, especially anything controversial! Occasionally the guiding industry fucks up by its own avarice, carelessness or idiocy on a bigger stage and the wider media notices - Everest examples abound.

So no, it isn't anything to do with targeting someone for the sport of it.  It's being consistent in calling out behaviour which appears to be against the greater good of this amazing recreational activity we have called climbing, which has unfortunately (imo) been appropriated by guiding companies, gear companies and individuals to use for their own financial ends.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 05:47:50 pm by petejh »

danm

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I do hope you haven't bought shares in any of these companies, the fiends.




teestub

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Are there any ‘recreational activities’ which are free of the evil grasp of capitalism? I assume there are bird watching influencers with Carl Zeiss sponsorships, and fossil collecting influencers desperately using the right Estwing hashtags?

SA Chris

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You clearly have no insight into the world of competitive twitching, getting your ticks based on hiring local guides, and subscribing to bird spotting newsfeeds. A guy I worked with is really into his birds and was telling me all about it.

Johnny Brown

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Yeah birding ain't it. Psychogeography and microscopy seem refreshingly free of it as far as I can see.

Bonjoy

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Are there any ‘recreational activities’ which are free of the evil grasp of capitalism? I assume there are bird watching influencers with Carl Zeiss sponsorships, and fossil collecting influencers desperately using the right Estwing hashtags?
I was going to say there was no commercialisation in my super obscure branch of fossil bothering (mostly because there's only me and two or three old men doing it in the UK), but then i remembered the time I took a guy out to a secret spot after he'd been in touch via a fossil forum, only to see a stream of fossils unmistakably from my secret spot start popping up on ebay at £60-80 pounds a piece! I'm very wary of passing on location information now after this brush with a 'commercial collector'.

danm

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I had to look psychogeography up, I assumed it was akin to feng shui or other forms of geomancy, but remembering your talk on praxis it makes sense that it is based on situationism.

With that in mind I'd assume you agree that James and Caro are not dicks, but have acted in a dickish manner because of the situation they find themselves in - making a living by selling a lifestyle so that TNF shareholders can afford to send their children to finishing school or whatever wealthy people do with their money these days. I say blame the carriage driver not the horses.

teestub

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making a living by selling a lifestyle so that TNF shareholders can afford to send their children to finishing school or whatever wealthy people do with their money these days. I say blame the carriage driver not the horses.

Looks like VF Corporation (TNF owners) stock took a small dip which ties in time wise with these cave exploits (I’m sure this is causation and not just correlation). I look forward to Pete’s next stock tips based around the misbehaviour of athletes devaluing companies!

petejh

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Looks like VF Corporation (TNF owners) stock took a small dip which ties in time wise with these cave exploits (I’m sure this is causation and not just correlation). I look forward to Pete’s next stock tips based around the misbehaviour of athletes devaluing companies!
Could be a good buying opportunity, (buy the dip). Has anyone done a valuation of TNF? Joke, not interested unless they’re mining copper, tin, gold or nickel, or designing long-life solid state batteries and lightweight wiring harnesses technology..


I do hope you haven't bought shares in any of these companies, the fiends.

Assuming you’re joking, but Capitalism covers a lot of ground as you no doubt know. On this board there are people whose politics cover the hard left to a few right wingers, but economically we’re all capitalists. If anyone doesn’t think they benefit from a capitalist system they’re mistaken unless they live on a commune completely separated from the western financial system. Me being enthusiastically into growing my wealth by actively using the stock market is just me playing the game better than some (if I succeed). We’re all playing the same game.

But that said, the typical response of ‘blame the game not the player’ is to me a somewhat pathetic way to live. No thanks.. I prefer to take responsibility for my own life and live as far as possible according to the principle that I’m ultimately responsible for my own decisions and choices. It’s probably part of what attracts me to climbing, especially adventurous climbing. And why I keep harping on that the thinking behind a lot of ‘professional climbing’ is antithetical to adventure and freedom.
‘I was just doing my job’ leaves you open to being used by more powerful interests to do things that go against your values. That has often not led to good outcomes for the people or systems on the other side of the decision. Shirking personal responsibility is one of the classic defence mechanisms.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 02:37:41 pm by petejh »

colin8ll

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If anyone doesn’t think they benefit from a capitalist system they’re mistaken

It's certainly been great for a few generations of people who appreciate upgrading to a larger TV every couple of years and who aren't too concerned about the climate apocalypse which is a direct result of this economic model :great: Their kids and their kids kids might come ot think differently

SA Chris

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Anyone without guilt throw the stone!

mrjonathanr

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Pete would rather throw the first gilt I expect.

Wellsy

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I'm not a capitalist (girl), I live in a capitalist world

tomtom

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“We’re all swimming in the gutter - but some of us are circling the drain”

danm

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It's hard to formulate a response to you Pete without it appearing either too rude or a personal attack, so I hope I manage to achieve it, if not, please accept that it isn't my intention!

What you call benefits I consider a gilded cage, and I think that the belief that actively playing the game gives you some form of control is delusional. You're simply lining your cage with some comfy cushions and soft furnishings. Unless your wealth numbers in the billions there won't be a seat on Space X to the new colony to escape from an exhausted, dying Earth (OK, a melodramatic scenario but not totally unrealistic, and a smart dude like Elon isn't pumping billions into space ex just for shits and giggles).

What indeed are the options for those who don't wish to participate in global capitalism? We can tinker at the edges by shopping locally, try to do skill swaps and barter etc, but the opportunity to step outside of it doesn't exist, although Yanis Varoufakis has some good ideas regarding alternative options - I recommend checking out his recent novel.

Getting back to the original reason for the post, we both cherish climbing and therefore blanch at the effects of globalism upon it, of which the James & Caro episode is but a symptom. Well, expand your field of view a little, and now consider the toxic effect of our ridiculous, gambling based decision making systems on all those other things which other people value - the arts, music, sport (just look at what has happened to football) even food. I sincerely believe there has to be another way, and equally if we don't find it we are fucked as a species, and a few ruffled cavers feathers are the least of our problems.

 

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