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Fall training is pointless or worse, discuss (Read 7754 times)

Wil

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When I interviewed Rebecca Williams (Dr, clinical psychologist) last year I asked her about this. She said that for some people the clip-drop technique will work, but those people aren't really afraid of falling. For those who are, they're likely to just be making the problem worse, or at least not making gains. This chimed with my experience personally and from observing others (as well as my experience of anxiety elsewhere in life).

I had pretty bad flashbacks and panic attacks after an accident 10 years ago. I hit the ground from about 7m, headfirst, having pinged of a slightly damp crimp that I thought I was secure on. After that any moves that even slightly resembled the insecurity of that moment would reduce me to a wreck, even on toprope, and I'd have the full gamut of toddler emotions that I couldn't control. In this case I was able to build up the exposure by just taking the falls (starting on toprope), but I think that's because the falls themselves weren't the problem, so I was effectively using the exposure technique outlined above. It also helped that the problem was quite specific, I was totally fine in other climbing situations (I led E4 and redpointed my first 7c in the 6 months after the accident).

In everyday life I've had issue with anxiety for a few years, more acute in the last 3. I think of my triggers as bringing me closer to a red line, if they stay below the mark I can control it, if they go past the line then I probably can't and there's a risk of exponential growth. After my head injury I was very often going over the line in certain situations. By controlling exposure I stayed below it, and relearned both to judge the threat and to control it, moving the line a little further away in the process.

abarro81

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A couple of ill-curated thoughts:

1. Jumping off from a fixed position indoors feels nothing like learning to take falls when climbing IMO - much better to "go" for the last move but deliberately just tap the hold instead of holding it than to grab it and jump. When I've deliberately taken falls indoors I've used this method after someone pointed out how much nicer and more like climbing it felt vs jumping off which feels weird and scary.

2. That said, I have deliberately jumped off on routes before to prove to myself that a fall is totally fine when I know it's bothering me a bit but also know the fall will be clean.

I suspect that what intensity of fear one experiences whilst climbing results from a combination of your background level of stress, fear of failure, exposure, fear of losing control, discomfort with feeling pumped (i.e. losing control), discomfort with low percentage moves (i.e. possibility of losing control), fear of the unknown (when onsighting, particularly on questy trad routes), and fear of harm / impact (plus anything else I've forgotten).
This is all quite interesting. My best times mentally above bolts have always been when climbing lots on rock, irrespective of styles (boulder or routes) and whether I've been taking falls or not - I find a certain level of comfort and familiarity with just being outside climbing on rock helps LOADS with my head. It removes most of those ones you listed above that creep in when you're not used to getting pumped on rock, trying hard on rock, working out moves, sketching through a section you don't know as well as you'd like but just backing it to work out etc. I think perhaps its a confidence/getting "on a roll" thing. Also life stress can really fuck your climbing head up! Never to be underestimated...

(I think this is actually what a lot of 'learning to deal with fear without eliminating it like what Dave MacLeod talks about; it's probably what happens when someone is in redpoint mode and so the importance of the route makes tolerating the fear more palatable)
I think this kind of thing rings true for me. When I'm in a focused and motivated mood I think I'm pretty ok above a bolt (but will never be a Hickish/Jacob skipping left right and centre just for fun). If I'm distracted or unmotivated I crumble and just want to clipstick past everything... I guess my actual FoFalling is probably reasonably high, it's just that most days it's easily ignored/muffled/overridden by motivation, excitement etc. This is where it makes a big difference to have partners and others at the crag who are in a good mood, skipping clips etc. I can certainly see how a crag full of people being scared, or a regular partner who is very scared, would be very infectious with FoFalling.
This all fits with "dogging terror" too - once I've fallen off an onsight, or if I'm working something, I'm terrible above a bolt. I can only climb well much above bolts on a real go where I feel like if I fall it doesn't matter where I end up (as long as it's safe). Interestingly, this "fear of faff" (i.e. having to boink to work moves, wasting time "ground upping" sections rather than just pulling past to feel the holds etc) is really a logical desire to not waster energy, but seems to manifest physically in a way that exceeds the logical desire not to have to bounce the rope
a few times - it has many of the same sensations that other fear does, and I can feel my body getting hugely stressed about falling off.


Johnny Brown

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A couple of observations from 21 years teaching safe work at height:

Fear of heights can definitely be an irrational phobia. We get the odd person sign up to a course in order to 'conquer their fear'. We try to weed these out at the booking stage now as it doesn't work, at least over the 5 day course. Typically they get by fine but are simply unable to force themselves to climb above a certain height, usually ~5m. More than once people have forced themselves through the full week and 90% of the assessment at low level, ending the assessment with the ultimatum 'just climb up and touch that beam and you will pass the course'. They can't make themselves do it.

Quote
Some researchers even argue that a lack of FOF is pathological and should maybe be treated.

These guys are far scarier. I've only met a couple in my time, but I try to put them off the career and would agree they need treatment. Likewise you get the odd one who is nervous and asks 'is this gear really safe?', you say 'yes, none of it has a breaking strain less than 1.5 tons' and they relax completely like they're on the floor.

I haven't done as much as some but after lots of work and play over thirty years I sometimes have to remind myself that soloing at 8m is not the same as low level traversing (not good) but otoh I still shit myself when presented with certain situations like a free-hanging 100m ab on a 9mm, or climbing an arete above the lip of an overhang >100m up (which I consider very healthy).

As much as normalising falling through practice can help sport climbing it's also buying more tickets for a lottery I'd rather be out of. As Ken used to say 'the sport bites', even sport climbing.

Will Hunt

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Care for a little schadenfreude, anyone?

Congratulations to local lad L. Hughes: Universe's Stupidest Being!

https://www.incidents.thebmc.co.uk/responses/e440eb2c-0adb-4ae5-adb9-72ae30a54c0b

Quote
Incident
Whilst lead climbing indoors I decided to take some practice falls. Unfortunately due to not really thinking this through and it being a spur of the moment idea I did this on a climb when a slab half way up....My ankle turned as I hit the wall.
...
I visited hospital where I was told that I had broken my medial malleous. I'm currently in a cast with instructions to not weight bear on my leg.

Lessons

Don't practice fall on slabs indoors. I'd presumed i would not get injured climbing indoors, this was wrong.


 :slap:

Potash

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There is something very visceral about being able to see the distance one might fall.

Height certainly comes into this as like Johnny B I have to remind myself that falling off the top of Stanage will be really bad. I have never had this issue when up really high.

I'm also not scared of falling off when it is dark. I won't solo at night with a head lamp because of this and when I have been climbing huge cliffs in the dark I have not been scared in the way I have when I can see the ground.

webbo

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Back in the last century I fell off the Shelf at Crookrise and decked it after ripping out all the gear(placed by mate :wall:) For about 18 months I struggled to lead things however I could solo things that were probably at my on sight leading grade.
Another ground fall this time solo seemed to give me confidence to solo things of similar height and landing due the idea you could survive the fall.

Fiend

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Reading all these interesting and varied views and experiences, it almost seems like people might have very different levels of fear-of-falling, different causes of that f-o-f, and even benefit from quite different methods to train to overcome or reduce that f-o-f... :-\ :-\ :-\

Johnny Brown

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I'm also not scared of falling off when it is dark. I won't solo at night with a head lamp because of this and when I have been climbing huge cliffs in the dark I have not been scared in the way I have when I can see the ground.

Yep. Same thing happens if you get clagged in on a big wall. Bizarre how relaxing it is.

MischaHY

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A couple of ill-curated thoughts:

1. Jumping off from a fixed position indoors feels nothing like learning to take falls when climbing IMO - much better to "go" for the last move but deliberately just tap the hold instead of holding it than to grab it and jump. When I've deliberately taken falls indoors I've used this method after someone pointed out how much nicer and more like climbing it felt vs jumping off which feels weird and scary.

2. That said, I have deliberately jumped off on routes before to prove to myself that a fall is totally fine when I know it's bothering me a bit but also know the fall will be clean.

I suspect that what intensity of fear one experiences whilst climbing results from a combination of your background level of stress, fear of failure, exposure, fear of losing control, discomfort with feeling pumped (i.e. losing control), discomfort with low percentage moves (i.e. possibility of losing control), fear of the unknown (when onsighting, particularly on questy trad routes), and fear of harm / impact (plus anything else I've forgotten).
This is all quite interesting. My best times mentally above bolts have always been when climbing lots on rock, irrespective of styles (boulder or routes) and whether I've been taking falls or not - I find a certain level of comfort and familiarity with just being outside climbing on rock helps LOADS with my head. It removes most of those ones you listed above that creep in when you're not used to getting pumped on rock, trying hard on rock, working out moves, sketching through a section you don't know as well as you'd like but just backing it to work out etc. I think perhaps its a confidence/getting "on a roll" thing. Also life stress can really fuck your climbing head up! Never to be underestimated...

(I think this is actually what a lot of 'learning to deal with fear without eliminating it like what Dave MacLeod talks about; it's probably what happens when someone is in redpoint mode and so the importance of the route makes tolerating the fear more palatable)
I think this kind of thing rings true for me. When I'm in a focused and motivated mood I think I'm pretty ok above a bolt (but will never be a Hickish/Jacob skipping left right and centre just for fun). If I'm distracted or unmotivated I crumble and just want to clipstick past everything... I guess my actual FoFalling is probably reasonably high, it's just that most days it's easily ignored/muffled/overridden by motivation, excitement etc. This is where it makes a big difference to have partners and others at the crag who are in a good mood, skipping clips etc. I can certainly see how a crag full of people being scared, or a regular partner who is very scared, would be very infectious with FoFalling.
This all fits with "dogging terror" too - once I've fallen off an onsight, or if I'm working something, I'm terrible above a bolt. I can only climb well much above bolts on a real go where I feel like if I fall it doesn't matter where I end up (as long as it's safe). Interestingly, this "fear of faff" (i.e. having to boink to work moves, wasting time "ground upping" sections rather than just pulling past to feel the holds etc) is really a logical desire to not waster energy, but seems to manifest physically in a way that exceeds the logical desire not to have to bounce the rope
a few times - it has many of the same sensations that other fear does, and I can feel my body getting hugely stressed about falling off.

Fairly comforting to hear this from you actually Alex. I'm very much the same, especially when it comes to the 'working stress' where you just want to avoid have to bonk up 4-5m and then reclimb the same section. This ironically makes me have to try harder than I should which can result in routes feeling vastly harder when working them than they actually are.

Ironically my head is excellent in 'don't fall off' situations. It's only when I could fall off but face the prospect of a big whip (especially on more vertical terrain) that I have a very adverse reaction. Brains are weird. 

Bradders

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I'm also not scared of falling off when it is dark. I won't solo at night with a head lamp because of this and when I have been climbing huge cliffs in the dark I have not been scared in the way I have when I can see the ground.

Yep. Same thing happens if you get clagged in on a big wall. Bizarre how relaxing it is.

This is interesting. Makes me think of when I'm in a plane, it's the total opposite for me in that if I can see the ground I tend to feel totally relaxed and safe, whereas if it's cloudy and I can't I feel very nervous indeed!

Wil

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This all fits with "dogging terror" too - once I've fallen off an onsight, or if I'm working something, I'm terrible above a bolt. I can only climb well much above bolts on a real go where I feel like if I fall it doesn't matter where I end up (as long as it's safe). Interestingly, this "fear of faff" (i.e. having to boink to work moves, wasting time "ground upping" sections rather than just pulling past to feel the holds etc) is really a logical desire to not waster energy, but seems to manifest physically in a way that exceeds the logical desire not to have to bounce the rope a few times - it has many of the same sensations that other fear does, and I can feel my body getting hugely stressed about falling off.

I definitely experience both of these. On the first couple of working goes on something I'm very reluctant to take a fall, and likely to grab the draw to clip etc. The fear of faff is more of a problem on trad for me, where it's the subconscious reason not to try things sometimes, but also a reason not to go further on some routes when retreat would become a little more time consuming.

seankenny

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I've had really positive experiences with fall practice. Maybe about a decade ago I was dogging something at Portland and just all over the place, so I decided to take 500 falls before Xmas (it was October). I dutifully logged every fall that I took, got to about 350 and felt much better. I was super careful not to avoid hitting people and things (volumes, corners, large holds) which could be painful. Once I had taken a lot of simulated falls - letting go rather than "jumping off", tho this may be semantics - I just naturally extended that into being able to fall off when going for it, I find them quite transferable. It seems to work for both onsighting and redpointing, bolt-to-bolting can still be an issue but much less than it was. Overall it proved to be a really freeing thing and I enjoy my climbing much more as a result.

I can't comment on people with PTSD etc as that's outside my understanding or knowledge. But for most people,my guess is that falling practice doesn't work for two reasons. Firstly, they don't do enough. This is Dave Mac's argument and I think he's right. Doing hundreds and hundreds over a relatively short period does seem to be quite different from doing say, just a hundred or fewer. The other thing is that it has to be really, really boring. For me (this may not be the same for everyone), you have to break the link between fear and falls that you can rationally see are safe. So it has to become a regular and very dull thing, starting very slowly, maybe even just climbing with a slack toprope before taking any kind of leader fall, and then increasing the fall length slowly, only moving on when you feel totally bored of taking a fall of that type.

I don't find I have to take lots of falls every week as per jwi's post, but I do need to keep it topped up in some form. I was surprisingly fine after the first lockdown last year but suspect this year I need a falling session to get me back in the swing of things, despite being under much more life stress then than now. No idea why this is.

It's definitely limited in its application. I'm fine - mostly -  on sports routes, tho I definitely back off or don't go on things. Weirdly bolted 80s routes in Montanejos weren't really my cup of tea. The kind of skipping clips that Fultonius describes would be beyond me. I've thought about it, and I could probably condition myself to do it using the same techniques, however it would be a bit of a painful process that I've so far avoided. Working routes doesn't always feel great, sometimes exposure can be stressful if I've not climbed much, and I still hate people short roping me.

Trad is more of an issue, mostly due to living in London and not getting enough regular tradding in. That's more concerns about gear than falling, I think, and what reeve wrote above about different cues really chimes with me. I'd be quite relaxed falling off a well protected grit route - done it lots - but a well protected Pembroke route would be more stressful, even though I know rationally lots of them are safe.


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I was super careful not to avoid hitting people and things (volumes, corners, large holds) which could be painful.

Tough bastard 😄

Ballsofcottonwool

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The other thing is that it has to be really, really boring. For me (this may not be the same for everyone), you have to break the link between fear and falls that you can rationally see are safe.

Totally agree that being able to rationalise risks and changing my way of thinking by challenging my own thoughts to decide what can be safe has been key for me.

My first ever lead fall was on trad on someone else's gear, they'd lowered off and asked if I wanted to try the move they couldn't commit to. I tied in, climbed up and committed to the move, the hold turned out to be a lot more polished and slippery than I was expecting for grit. Next thing I knew I was swinging on the rope a few feet above the ground, my belayer looking pretty shocked. I went to the hold completely static next go and did the route.

I believe this positive first fall experience was key in setting me up to be confident on a rope. I could honestly tell myself from an experience that if the gear is good trust it, trust the belayer, the fall will be fine. Other key things I have done since are not telling my belayer to "watch me on this move" or shouting "I'm off" and I usually clip the belay on a sport route and just let go without warning, these are behaviours that reinforce trust in the system and my belayer.  I have to have faith they will hold any fall because they wouldn't get any warning if I fell because of a broken hold for example. In the past I have forgotten to tell new partners that I do the above, but I warn them now so they don't let go of the rope in shock.


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well protected Pembroke route would be more stressful, even though I know rationally lots of them are safe.

I think it's entirely rational to be worried about falling off sea cliff routes. Not just the atmosphere factor of waves crashing etc, but the actual legitimate question of "ok, what's the plan for getting out of here if we can't do the route?"

jwi

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I've had really positive experiences with fall practice.

Interesting. It is true that there are some (including my better half) who have had positive experiences, and it might be worth to figure out why.

But from individual cases it is hard to draw general conclusions. For that we need controls. Five hundred falls is a lot of time invested. Who is to say that you would not improve as much if you had done something else?.

My biggest single improvement in my mental capabilities on lead came after a long winter in northern Scandinavia spent doing a frankly insane amount of top-rope laps on a 6m tall indoor wall and nothing else. No bouldering, no leading, no nothing. The first day of spring I completely crushed it (well, compared to baseline i.e.) onsighting trad routes. I had never been so comfortable leading trad before that day. As the spring progressed I realised that I was just way more comfortable climbing, in any style sport or trad.

petejh

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That sounds a bit like you got a lot of mileage and built up a base of endurance and movement. As you mentioned in a previous post on training, you think this sort of ultra mileage is the best way to get better at climbing endurance stuff.

Then you did lots of onsighting, i.e. not falling off!

Is that not slightly different to what we’re talking about here? Which is going for it on a sequence with a high likelihood of falling off - i.e. most usually on a redpoint attempt  at your limit.

jwi

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Then you did lots of onsighting, i.e. not falling off!


I tried not to fall off, but fell off a lot. I did not do any death defying trad. Head was also better than before on sport redpointing.

 

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