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Topic split: Replacing Mescalito belay and chain grabbing (Read 6427 times)

spidermonkey09

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Have a funky method - I get my LH on the rightmost crimp then get my RF in the groove and get a knee scum and bring my RH to a sidehold just below my knee.

If you replace the belay suggest you put it above the bulge so you can clip off the undercuts in the overlap but leave the original in place for people who want to do it as originally or for when the overlap is still wet.

Interesting. I boned the best crimp with my right hand and got feet sorted as best I could to clip. Think RF ended up on the good flatty in the corner. Only found out about the undercut later on.

Suggestion noted; didn't really get beyond acknowledging it needed doing so will have a proper look when next up there.

Will Hunt

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the belay is in a bad place and a total bastard to clip...Damn you Fawcett.

If you replace the belay suggest you put it above the bulge so you can clip off the undercuts in the overlap but leave the original in place for people who want to do it as originally or for when the overlap is still wet.

I don't know the route so take this comment with a pinch of salt, but in my opinion an illogically positioned lower-off can really detract from a route's quality, making it feel contrived. If Ron put the belay in a daft place I wouldn't be shy about fixing that - leaving an old belay in place seems mad (surely if it needs replacing then the old one should be removed so we don't end up with the crag being littered with any more dangerous junk than needs be?). Unless you feel that a tricky (redpoint crux?!) chain clip is an integral part of the route (if it is then that's it scrapped off my wishlist).

Personally I (and I think lots of other punters) like it when somebody takes the initiative to fix bad bolting (an additional bolt at the start of Directissima for instance), even when the old vets might moan that the bad bolting was some great quality of the route in question.

spidermonkey09

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I don't know the route so take this comment with a pinch of salt, but in my opinion an illogically positioned lower-off can really detract from a route's quality, making it feel contrived. If Ron put the belay in a daft place I wouldn't be shy about fixing that - leaving an old belay in place seems mad (surely if it needs replacing then the old one should be removed so we don't end up with the crag being littered with any more dangerous junk than needs be?). Unless you feel that a tricky (redpoint crux?!) chain clip is an integral part of the route (if it is then that's it scrapped off my wishlist).

Personally I (and I think lots of other punters) like it when somebody takes the initiative to fix bad bolting (an additional bolt at the start of Directissima for instance), even when the old vets might moan that the bad bolting was some great quality of the route in question.

Its tricky but not the redpoint crux and certainly doesn't detract from the route. It should remain on your summer hit list for sure.

shark

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If Ron put the belay in a daft place

Bit uncertain about the history of the belay. I assumed that Ron tensioned in from the Yosemite Wall belay which is why it is there but Zippy thinks it was the original belay for Yosemite Wall. What is sure is that it isn’t positioned for ease of clipping.

moose

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What does one need to do a Lattice test? I bet I'd come out as the weakest climber to have ever lived.

I got there first.  I had a "blind lattice test" that told me that, despite my gnarly finger tendons, any hope of a useful life was scuppered by terrible core strength and an utter lack of beef.   All qualitatively correct, although, their lack of faith in my ability to bring geology down to my level meant I got the assessment for free.

Managed to get into the awkward position to clip the belay and pulled up the rope but lost tension as about to clip and couldn’t reach the draw! went half the length of the crag ending up below the New Dawn bulge.
:lol: Brilliant! Always wondered how far you'd go in that scenario. I came within a whisker of doing exactly the same thing. FWIW moving the belay was on my list last autumn but I ran out of time before it all got wet; it will get done this year but you'll have ticked it by then! Were you clipping off the crimp or the undercut in the overlap?

I've taken that ride too - I literally froze while trying to clip the Mescalito belay in a blizzard and took the long trip (and came very close to doing the same on the next occasion).  Not as scary as the similar belay-clip fall from Overnite Sensation - I scraped the floor on that one (not helped by the belayer possibly being the only partner I've ever had who was lighter than me).  I'm a bit torn on the re-positioning issue.  The location of the Mescalito belay is by any sensible measure crap, and I would be very annoyed if a newly bolted route was like that.  But it's a known facet / oddity of the route - like the gripper-clipper finale of Overnite, the chain-grab of Raindogs, the slightly run-out nature of Frankie goes to Kilnsey.  Stuff like that is part of climbing lore, such as it is by the weak standards of sport climbing.  My Dad used to say "life is just a quest to find things to talk about in pubs" - if belays are moved, we are robbing future generations of finding commonalities over pints of beer and packets of crisps ? 

Rob F

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 :2thumbsup: I can imagine the mobile phone in a shoe footage. Slowly inching your way up, all stylish and in control. Go out of shot off the top of the screen. Next thing- full screen plummet followed by a few seconds of language requiring beeps...

IanP

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I've taken that ride too - I literally froze while trying to clip the Mescalito belay in a blizzard and took the long trip (and came very close to doing the same on the next occasion).  Not as scary as the similar belay-clip fall from Overnite Sensation - I scraped the floor on that one (not helped by the belayer possibly being the only partner I've ever had who was lighter than me).  I'm a bit torn on the re-positioning issue.  The location of the Mescalito belay is by any sensible measure crap, and I would be very annoyed if a newly bolted route was like that.  But it's a known facet / oddity of the route - like the gripper-clipper finale of Overnite, the chain-grab of Raindogs, the slightly run-out nature of Frankie goes to Kilnsey.  Stuff like that is part of climbing lore, such as it is by the weak standards of sport climbing.  My Dad used to say "life is just a quest to find things to talk about in pubs" - if belays are moved, we are robbing future generations of finding commonalities over pints of beer and packets of crisps ? 

I'm impressed by both your and Simon's commitment to tradition (or purer ethics?), when I did it 2008 I decided as soon as I started working it that I wasn't bothering to try to clip the ridiculous belay and grabbed it instead.  A tainted ascent but still a great route and the position of the belay really does make no sense.   

SA Chris

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:2thumbsup: I can imagine the mobile phone in a shoe footage. Slowly inching your way up, all stylish and in control. Go out of shot off the top of the screen. Next thing- full screen plummet followed by a few seconds of language requiring beeps...
have you looked at whippermedia on Instagram?

Bradders

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I'm impressed by both your and Simon's commitment to tradition (or purer ethics?), when I did it 2008 I decided as soon as I started working it that I wasn't bothering to try to clip the ridiculous belay and grabbed it instead.  A tainted ascent but still a great route and the position of the belay really does make no sense.

Very much support this. Ideally you'd clip a well positioning finish, but hard clips to finish a route are the sport climbing equivalent of boulder problems where the hardest part is getting your arse off the ground  :shit:

James Malloch

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I'm impressed by both your and Simon's commitment to tradition (or purer ethics?), when I did it 2008 I decided as soon as I started working it that I wasn't bothering to try to clip the ridiculous belay and grabbed it instead.  A tainted ascent but still a great route and the position of the belay really does make no sense.

Very much support this. Ideally you'd clip a well positioning finish, but hard clips to finish a route are the sport climbing equivalent of boulder problems where the hardest part is getting your arse off the ground  :shit:

+1
Though I take it to the extreme with scary (but easy) boulder top outs. Who needs them when you've done all the hard bits already  :sorry:

spidermonkey09

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This is outrageous stuff. Grabbing chains went out in the 90s! (Raindogs excepted) As for not doing the easy top out on stuff when its clean and dry...

Shocked and appalled.

SA Chris

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hard clips to finish a route are the sport climbing equivalent of boulder problems where the hardest part is getting your arse off the ground  :shit:

More like a gut grinding mantelshelf topout.

ali k

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Re: Mescalito belay. It was about 14yrs ago since I was last on it so can't remember how bad the clipping position is, but is the intention to move the belay up so you climb past the original one and finish underneath the big roof instead of in the middle of the wall? (assuming that's possible).

If so, that might be a stronger argument for moving it as it would improve the route overall. If the intention is to lower it or move it sideways just to make it easier to clip then I'd agree with Moose that it's a quirk of the route and should probably stay - otherwise you're doing a disservice to all the people who've struggled with that clip over the last ~37yrs!

IanP

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This is outrageous stuff. Grabbing chains went out in the 90s! (Raindogs excepted) As for not doing the easy top out on stuff when its clean and dry...

Shocked and appalled.

Thought this might cause some controvesy, at least I've got the excuse that my sport climbing beginnings were in the early 90s  ;).     

spidermonkey09

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Re: Mescalito belay. It was about 14yrs ago since I was last on it so can't remember how bad the clipping position is, but is the intention to move the belay up so you climb past the original one and finish underneath the big roof instead of in the middle of the wall? (assuming that's possible).

If so, that might be a stronger argument for moving it as it would improve the route overall. If the intention is to lower it or move it sideways just to make it easier to clip then I'd agree with Moose that it's a quirk of the route and should probably stay - otherwise you're doing a disservice to all the people who've struggled with that clip over the last ~37yrs!

It already finishes under the roof. Sound like you're referring to the New Dawn belay?

Stabbsy

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This is outrageous stuff. Grabbing chains went out in the 90s! (Raindogs excepted) As for not doing the easy top out on stuff when its clean and dry...

Shocked and appalled.

And you were sport climbing loads in the 90s to be able to comment on this from a position of experience? It was definitely still the done thing early 2000s (I think) when I did Mescalito. I certainly don’t remember agonising over the decision and no-one called me out despite having some regulars either side of me cheering me on. The only Malham rules that I remember was that you couldn’t put a quickdraw on the Raindogs belay to grab. Everything else was fair game.

Strangely enough, I never used to grab the chains abroad and some crags in the UK seemed more normal to do this than others. Malham was one that always suited it because so many routes stopped in weird places.

Ian and Serpico (if he’s still skulking around here) would be better placed to know the Malham norm than most as they were pretty much part of the furniture back then.

spidermonkey09

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And you were sport climbing loads in the 90s to be able to comment on this from a position of experience? It was definitely still the done thing early 2000s (I think) when I did Mescalito. I certainly don’t remember agonising over the decision and no-one called me out despite having some regulars either side of me cheering me on. The only Malham rules that I remember was that you couldn’t put a quickdraw on the Raindogs belay to grab. Everything else was fair game.

Strangely enough, I never used to grab the chains abroad and some crags in the UK seemed more normal to do this than others. Malham was one that always suited it because so many routes stopped in weird places.

Ian and Serpico (if he’s still skulking around here) would be better placed to know the Malham norm than most as they were pretty much part of the furniture back then.

Not in the slightest, just what I've gathered from conversations. I've always wondered when/why this change happened so might a good thread split.

I have never thought of chain grabbing as legitimate since I started climbing in 2010 (can't think of any videos of prominent climbers grabbing chains either) so by the sounds of it it shifted sometime in the 2000s rather than the 90s? Interesting that it wasn't the norm everywhere though. Obviously I'm not having a go at Ian or anyone else!


T_B

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Maybe it was Jibe’s (?) chain grab (or lack of) on Raindogs that highlighted this, but when I was a yoof in the early 90s on trips to Spain etc you’d just grab the chain. Then I remember hearing it wasn’t the done thing on the continent and stopped doing it.

Wrt Mescalito I’ve not done the route, but if the difficulty of clipping the chains gives it ‘character’ it strikes me folk need to go trad climbing. It just sounds like a poorly positioned belay. That said falling off whilst eyeballing the chains is character building. I remember doing it on San John's Pécos at Ceuse. Gutted!

Will Hunt

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This is why it makes sense to have belays and bolts in logical places - so the climber isn't left wondering whether what they're doing is the right thing or not. If the Mescalito belay was shifted to a more logical position I imagine there would be a few grumbles from the Ethical Thought Leaders, most people who did it years ago who would shrug, and a load of people who would say "oh well done, that needed sorting out". In 5 years time it'll be the new accepted norm and everybody who actually wants to climb the route will be glad of it.

It just seems a shame to have a load of routes around the place with cack bolting which nobody will fix for fear of change. The bolts got moved around on Consenting recently so that the third clip was a bit less death defying. I've not heard one person complain that that clip was somehow part of the route's special character.

ali k

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It already finishes under the roof. Sound like you're referring to the New Dawn belay?
Ah yeh I must be! So are there no decent holds in or around the roof to clip off? Or is it just that the crimps stay dry when the roof doesn't, so clipping off the crimps makes it climbable more often?

Trying to understand the logic of why the belay is where it is (if any).

spidermonkey09

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Ah yeh I must be! So are there no decent holds in or around the roof to clip off? Or is it just that the crimps stay dry when the roof doesn't, so clipping off the crimps makes it climbable more often?

Trying to understand the logic of why the belay is where it is (if any).

Tbh my working theory is that it was the original belay for Yosemite wall and instead of going to the effort of drilling another belay Ron just did a few moves left from where Mescalito would logically finish to clip it. It probably wasn't that hard for him I guess!

Its not so much the clipping off the crimps that makes it hard, its the long stretch left from them to get the rope in the draw. If the belay was right there it wouldn't be that tricky.

Tbh all the ethics of it aside, the main reason it will need replacing soon is because its really old and not in great nick.

shark

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Tbh all the ethics of it aside, the main reason it will need replacing soon is because its really old and not in great nick.

It’s not terrible yet and the cautious can back it up with the current YW belay just to the left but certainly a replacement is desirable.

It is possible to replace in the same spot but that seems nonsensical. If placed under the roof then it would not only take away the hard clip but also a couple of moves up to it whereas over the roof would at least retain those moves.

Some already go up to the undercuts in the roof and stretch back down as a method of clipping the current belay.

shark

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Re chain grabbing Malham has a gold plated precedent with Raindogs which historically made other grabs seem variably more legitimate depending when you did it and in descending order of legitimacy: Overnite 😀 Mescalito, Frankenstein, Unjustified and Connect 4. Apart from Raindogs doesn’t seem to happen at all now.

Paul B

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Wrt Mescalito I’ve not done the route, but if the difficulty of clipping the chains gives it ‘character’ it strikes me folk need to go trad climbing.

This argument seems flawed to me as you can apply it to a lot of the quirks of UK sport climbing which would make it distinctly more beige.

mrjonathanr

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If clipping the chain is a problem it should be fixed as it is an entirely artificial problem. Is it even the original chain? I did this years ago and remember the crux well enough but have no recollection of the clip being hard to make.

 

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