[FlatlandWarrior]

This may have already been talked about elsewhere but having gone back to Rowtor Rocks recently for the first time in a while (~1.5-2 years) I was pretty shocked to see how much erosion there was. Particularly blood falls, though I could see it just beginning to happen to a few other problems such as the lower heel hooks on Domes Low.

It gave me half a mind to try slow the erosion on a few of them, especially Domes Low where the holds are massive heel toe cams and so maintaining good friction is much less important.

I saw the thread on hold repairs but I wanted to post here first to gauge opinion first. Also to ask if anyone more experienced in such repairs would be willing to do it? As I’ve never tried before!

What do people think? (Can potentially get photos this week)

[Bonjoy]

Blood Falls and the prob just left of it have been eroding badly for a long time. The enormous slot on BF used to be a shallow slopey three finger drag.
Some erosion control has been tried there in the past. I applied some stuff sold as Stoneseal many years ago, paid for by the BMC as a trial, but it was fairly ineffective and I have never used it since.
I also sealed a couple of very crumbly holds with anchor resin (epoxy acrylate I think) on Domes and My Buddy the Apple. Both of these repairs have held up well.
Since then I've formed the opinion that low viscosity superglue is the best option in most cases, though I would still repair the Domes and MBtA holds with resin as these were both extremely unstable and needed a solid crust creating.
The difficulty with superglue repairs on BF would be the practicalities of application to the back and roof of the slot. Large slopers can be superglued but you will get through a lot of it, it will be visible and you have to be quick and diligent about dabbing off excess to avoid a permanent glaze.
I agree that fixing the heeltoes on Domes sitter would be a call. it needs doing and the likelihood of creating a mess or changing the difficulty by misapplying are very low.

[FlatlandWarrior]

Thanks bonjoy, so for the specific case of the Domes heel toes would you suggest superglue or anchor resin? Obviously there’s no hold to ‘glue back on’ it would be more about re-establishing a solid surface.

[Ru]

This stuff is expensive, but very good. Designed to make rotten wood structurally sound, it's a very thin 2-part epoxy resin that is very easily absorbed. Because it is so easily absorbed it doesn't leave a surface sheen until the thing you are treating has either become saturated, or you apply it in stages, letting each stage set first (so that the sealant makes the substrate less permiable).  It's quite easy to back off before you get to the stage where the surface become covered. Not tried it on hold repair yet, but I've tested it on very old powdery brick and plaster and assume it would work just as well on rock. It should be a lot more durable than superglue.

It does change the surface colour, making it a few shades darker, similarly to if it was wet.

https://www.makewoodgood.co.uk/product/cpes-clear-penetrating-epoxy-sealer/

[Bonjoy]

Thanks bonjoy, so for the specific case of the Domes heel toes would you suggest superglue or anchor resin? Obviously there’s no hold to ‘glue back on’ it would be more about re-establishing a solid surface.

Yes, deffo not anchor resin for the Domes Heel-toe.
This is what I use - https://www.sureloc-direct.co.uk/index.php/cyanoacrylate-industrial-adhesives/low-odour-low-bloom/lo5-low-odour-super-glue-thin-50gm.html

[Bonjoy]

Product datasheet here - https://www.surelocadhesives.com/productdocs/pdfdocument15.pdf

[remus]

This stuff is expensive, but very good. Designed to make rotten wood structurally sound, it's a very thin 2-part epoxy resin that is very easily absorbed. Because it is so easily absorbed it doesn't leave a surface sheen until the thing you are treating has either become saturated, or you apply it in stages, letting each stage set first (so that the sealant makes the substrate less permiable).  It's quite easy to back off before you get to the stage where the surface become covered. Not tried it on hold repair yet, but I've tested it on very old powdery brick and plaster and assume it would work just as well on rock. It should be a lot more durable than superglue.

It does change the surface colour, making it a few shades darker, similarly to if it was wet.

https://www.makewoodgood.co.uk/product/cpes-clear-penetrating-epoxy-sealer/

To be fair you get a lot of glue for your money there (57£/l), though would obviously depend how much you need to use to get the job done.

[FlatlandWarrior]

Thanks both, Bonjoy how much is normally needed to seal it? I’ve used superglue in the past and found that it absorbs _a lot_ so if it’s going to take 4 tubes of the stuff anyway I might as well go for the epoxy.

For reference there are two palm sized patches where it’s gone all the way through to crumbly sand.

[FlatlandWarrior]

Edit: I think I’m unfortunately probably not the right person to be trying out something new and untested :/

Will likely end up going with superglue unless Jon reckons a palm/hand sized area is too large and would be better served by a PVA mix? (which I saw on the hold repair thread)

[Bonjoy]

Palm size is fine. You don’t have to keep applying until local saturation. So long as a layer near the surface is well bound together. PVA is okay but unlikely to last very long on a heavily loaded foothold

[carlisle slapper]

Late to the party on this...I'd echo Bonjoys sureloc advice. Ru's reccomendation will work but epoxy doesnt last as it breaks down with UV so if the area gets sunlight on it then it'd need reapplied within 3 years. I have a really good PDF from english heritage somewhere where they review the different epoxies and resins.
FWIW i have got 3-5mm penetration depths from the sureloc CA5 low viscosity stuff where as from the epoxies i've never managed >2mm and most sit at 1mm. So for the past 2 years i've only used Sureloc and have had amazing results at preserving fragile features. It goes very dark initially but is usually invisible after 6 months.

With all superglues relative humidity and the dryness of the rock play the greatest role in it penetrating well so try and apply the glue at a time of year when its low humidity and the rock is very dry but cold (less grain expansion) for best results.
I think the only thing that might offer a competitive solution to the CA5 glue is nanolime but it needs dedication and lots of repeat applications so i'm not aware of anyone trying it out on crags yet? as out needs are different to EH in that we load the surface. i've got some good papers on it for old buildings and it looks promising as it allows the rock to breathe still and has great penetration which all other glues dont do but i'm sceptical as to the surface grain strength/ bonding potential vs superglue.
Me and Steve also noticed recently that the 20g bottles seem to stay fresher and penetrate better than the 50g bottles after i've had them in my bag for >1year.

[Ru]

I'm not really advocating that anyone use this epoxy stuff for Rowtor - probably best to use a tried and tested method - I posted more for general awareness of another possible solution and one that would potentially work well with larger coverage areas.

From what I've read, epoxy suffers greater UV degradation than cyanoacrylate, but epoxy is generally better under a greater range of temperatures and less prone to stress fracturing - not much of an issue with repairing slopers, but possibly more of an issue with holds like crimps, where they are made of soft rock. I'm also not sure how much of an issue UV degradation is when you have a glue that is largely absorbed, rather than sitting on the surface.

The stuff I posted a link to is much thinner than normal epoxy resins and is designed to soak into small pore spaces. It does have some safety issues because of that, as it's very volatile, but that's probably not an issue outdoors. I was actually recommended it by a building conservationist that had used it on gritstone walls where the surface has decayed through moisture ingress from using non-lime mortar. I've just smashed open a brick I treated a few weeks ago and it had gone in about 8-9mm, although the brick was clearly very porous. There's a small bouldering height quarry local to me that I've been developing with a band of very poor rock - I will probably buy some sureloc and do a side by side test, although it may be about 5 years before any difference is noticeable.

[carlisle slapper]

Hey Ru, I used to use wet rot epoxy exclusively prior to superglue as had it recommended by the southern sandstone lot about 10years ago so put it on 20-30 various lines in the county and it worked brilliantly for about 6months to a year. It has broken down to be non existant now at bowden which gets a lot of sun. You can still see it on a few roof problems at backers i used it on. Notable bowden problems would be Bourgeoisie and the crack and Alfie top out (thankfully the bottom holds have always been superglued and havent changed a great deal since the FA. it wore off the crack between 6 month visits and in that time that really bad foothold erosion on the first move occurred. You'd never know i put it on almost all the problems i did now as all sign of it has disappeared.
Having put both normal and the CA5 sureloc superglue on various venues over the years but in the past 2 years around 100 problems (all types of grit and sandstone) with dabbles of CA5 here and there and some with loads on like semantron low i couldn't be more impressed with its longevity  (eventual) invisibility and strength in all weathers and aspects. you can undo it well with debonder (same for epoxy with acetone mind) which i had to do once when the rock was wet below the surface and it made the hold glassy. in some cases like the footholds of honeycomb wall and captain haddock you can visibly see where brushing has eroded about 0.5mm around the foothold but the coated part is still going strong after one application 11 years ago (i stabilsed a larger area after seeing the change). Its easy storage and application make it super handy to always have in the bag and i've found the sureloc bottles rarely clog up, I'd say the only drawback is cost per area but in the rare cases it's been needed then its always felt worth the money. The BMC has paid for much of the stabilisation CA5 glue Steve Blake and I put in at bowden, back bowden and hepburn amongst other spots and the £20 went a surprisingly long way on the stuff i put on.

wearing eye protection is advisable for overhangs etc if stood below the hold! ( or when the wind randomly blows it into your eye from 1m away)

[FlatlandWarrior]

Thanks all for the extra detail, just as an update: 2x50ml of the Sureloc that Jon recommended has just arrived in the post and I’m going to try find a cold dry day this week to go do it. Any specific recommendations about humidity and temperature?

I want to try do it fairly soon as I can see those heels getting very eroded _very_ quickly. I’ll try take some photos also, before and after.

[FlatlandWarrior]

I finally found a reasonable time to go do this today, the weather has been dreadful for ages and this week is the last week I’ll be in the Peak District for a while.

I did both the heel toe cams, the left one was more damp than I would have liked but following Jon's advice in an old BMC newsletter I decided to continue anyway and just make sure I was quick with the dabbing rag.

It seems to have been successful and I’ve linked a bunch of photos for people to take a look and as a record of the erosion for the future.

It’s certainly stopped eroding but if you really carefully compare the glue patch with the surrounding rock using your fingers then there is a subtle difference in the friction. The main grain is certainly still present but it’s enough that if it were a key sloper then I think it would make a difference to the problem. As it is however, with them being heel toe cams, I don’t think it will make any difference. I certainly couldn’t tell when I tried my shoe on it.

Hopefully when someone next pays a visit they’ll agree it was worth it! The penetration probably wasn’t as good as it could have been on a perfect weather day but I think on balance I’m glad to have done it now as if it erodes through in a year then we can always re-apply.

Photos:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/o84VzcZE1pGHeV25A

[mark20]

It’s certainly stopped eroding but if you really carefully compare the glue patch with the surrounding rock using your fingers then there is a subtle difference in the friction. The main grain is certainly still present but it’s enough that if it were a key sloper then I think it would make a difference to the problem.

My theory is that even with a slight glue residue, a stabalised hold will be better/nicer/more friction than an eroding sandy hold.

Good work

[spidermonkey09]

Great effort, they really needed doing. I still won't be able to do Domes Low though.

[Bonjoy]

Good work. I doubt slight friction loss will be an issue on this kind of hold. It's slopey handholds where you have to be very careful about not losing too much friction.