[shark]

When the BMC adopted a policy of getting more people into climbing/hillwalking

There’s no such policy.

[cheque]

The problems with parking in the Peak District NP have not been created by climbers, there are just loads more users, which is great to see. Some of them need educating. And wot Jonboy said, the only solution to the parking are more, big car parks a la Longshaw.

 

Bamford, Curbar Gap & Stanage (specifically Robin Hood’s Cave for some reason- I can’t be the only person who’s asked for directions to it every time I’m there) are clearly recommended in the places that people who’ve never been to the countryside before go to find COVID-era daytrip advice. I can’t imagine anyone going to Curbar on a mental parking day and honestly thinking “The BMC did this” 

[steveri]

The fact there’s 4 or 5 parking threads on ukc right now shows whack a mole is the perfect description. It’s a big problem and mostly tackled in small local doses.

This thread is serving only to reinforce my misanthropic tendencies. People are great in small doses, ‘people’ too many of them.

I spent a bunch of last year wandering round some fairly niche venues and hadn’t really clocked the current situation, it’s come as a rude shock when I’ve been anywhere more mainstream.

As a side note, I’m convinced Bamford is in some sort of Japanese guidebook of essential uk visits, as per Cheque above.

[Offwidth]

But Offwidth promised us that all the new climbers would flock to the esoteric choss and clean it all up for us!

As much as I'd like that people would climb on less well travelled routes in the peak (which are rmainly good or worthwhile but need cleaning) there is no way I ever promised that would happen.

Sideswipes at the BMC encouraging participation are lazy nonsense given their work on responsible access and conservation: BMC members will be a small minority of those parked and I doubt any of them will be blocking roads. The BMC is its membership and in that local access teams are our quiet heros.

The whole reason this change has happened is honeypotting of increasing visitors on top of a pandemic where car sharing is reduced. Coming from where I live in Nottingham public transport is usually impractical and in my thousand plus car visits (always trying to car share)  I've never had to part block any part of any road once when parking. Too many people are irresponsible with parking and where this causes real constrictions this needs to be stopped (I've seen issues in several beauty spots in England and Wales where an ambulance was held up for way too long).  Bad parking is often needless: at Stanage people will be on the grass verges at the Popular End when the Plantation car park is half empty. I agree with others that a bit more parking on the Eastern Edges for peak times would be good for everyone, with some better integrated public transport, but pressure will ease a bit when we can car share again.

[Bradders]

I'm optimistic that the increased visitor numbers are a temporary issue, and will ease off the moment pubs etc. re-open. It's easy to forget as a climber during this lockdown that, as long as we have local rock, our primary pastime has still been open to us whilst for the vast majority it's a choice between work (for those lucky enough), TV/reading/other sitting at home activity, and a walk, none of which I'm guessing would normally be the first choice!

[Johnny Brown]

I’m convinced Bamford is in some sort of Japanese guidebook of essential uk visits

Yes, its called the 'internet'. The way social media and search engine algorithms work is they show you the most popular content, which quickly creates a feedback loop. Spots where you can easily take a superficially impressive photo for instagram have gone viral as a result. Yes, total numbers should ease post-lockdown, but the honey-potting is sadly baked-in to modern communication.

[Stabbsy]

I'm optimistic that the increased visitor numbers are a temporary issue, and will ease off the moment pubs etc. re-open.

This. Not sure it will go back to pre-lockdown levels very quickly, but I think things will improve.

I’ve heard talk of adding miles of double yellows around Redmires to combat bad parking (again, definitely not climbers) but it was suggested they hold fire for a few months to see what happens as lockdown eases. Not sure if this advice will be taken, but seems like a more measured approach than DCC.

[Stabbsy]

As a side note, I’m convinced Bamford is in some sort of Japanese guidebook of essential uk visits, as per Cheque above.

It also used to be in some literature for the Lake District NP. I got sent through a leaflet from a friend who worked for LDNP with a picture of a climber on Gargoyle Flake asking me where it was. I said Bamford, she said I thought that was in the Peak. I said, it is.

[abarro81]

Sideswipes at the BMC encouraging participation are lazy nonsense given their work on responsible access and conservation: BMC members will be a small minority of those parked and I doubt any of them will be blocking roads.

I can't speak for Will (though he did point out it was only semi-relevant), but from my point of view it wasn't about this specific issue, just a general swipe at the bullshit idea of "growing the sport".

As an aside, your complete inability to accept any criticism of anything the BMC ever does is quite boring, and for me at least backfires (i.e. your overly defensive posts make me think less of the BMC, not more). The idea that doing work on responsible access will mitigate all the negatives of increased volume of climbers is obviously bollocks. But yes, thanks a lot to the access people, they do lots of good work.

[cheque]

I wasn’t trying to single out any particular demographic by the way.

[mrjonathanr]

In fairness to Offwidth, whilst his claims for BMC being wonderful in all ways may be open to question, shifting responsibility onto the BMC for Peak parking issues without offering evidence really is lazy nonsense.

[abarro81]

That's not really what anyone did though, is it. And suggesting so is lazy nonsense.

[danm]

The sport is growing anyway, the trick is managing it where you can in a sensible way. Maybe if everyone here who has an IG account stopped posting about their climbing achievements and how much fun they are having that would help? More seriously, if you want to look at what the BMC are doing about it, maybe have a look at our current content? Respect the Rock, Respect the Wild, the message is pretty damn clear. The hard bit is getting that message out to non-members who are less likely to be on message or well educated on these issues. I'm accepting crowdfunding donations from UKBers to my personal account to pay Cambridge Analytica to send targeted FB ads to everyone who posted pictures of the countryside in their feeds over the last year. Target is set at a miserly £1.5m.

[SamT]

I noticed yesterday that DCC has put new double yellows on all the roads around the top of winnats, mam tor, rushop etc. Presumably in advance the expected parking carnage.

Presumably a park wide thing.  I've got mixed feelings about it.  I hate seeing the utter carnage of willy nilly parking so in some respects I'm ok with it, but its just knee jerk, and ill thought through.  I cant see there's any master plan. (i.e. bigger/better car parks with etc.).

It seems that the lakes have been on top of this for years..Good, efficiently designed car parks, (usually national trust), but with measures and tight controls to prevent overspill parking, be it lines/high verges etc.  Its quite cut and dried up there, you either get a space in the car park, or you go elsewhere.  There's not many options for 'cheeky' parking on the verge.  On bank holidays, there's usually a farmers field opened up for overspill.  I think it works well.

Re - Bamford edge and particularly the view from the top of it looking north with the dams in the back ground has definitely developed into an Instagram must tick view. 

I think its Chinese students from Sheffield, rather than Japanese tourist.  Dad lives on main road in Bamford and every day, there is a non stop stream of them traipsing past his front living room every single day. He's taken to waving at them which they love apparently and have even stopped to take his pic  .  He's involved with 'Friends of Bamford Station' who look after the train station (litter pick etc) and they've got some info board up in Mandarin now.

I was in my mums back garden the other day which is by Hathersage station. 

I overhead the following through the hedge (they were in a car, not off the train).

(thick lancastrian womans accent)
"Elow.. we're err to see that stanage edge, are we anywur close"
"err, kind of, you need to go right left right left etc etc etc".

Pissed myself.

It was the way she said 'here to see that stanage', not go for a walk or anything, like they'd rocked up to see the statue of liberty, or Eifel tower or something.

[steveri]

The sport is growing anyway, the trick is managing it where you can in a sensible way. Maybe if everyone here who has an IG account stopped posting about their climbing achievements and how much fun they are having

Go on then, I’m in. Can we get #chosschasers trending to spread the load?

[Fiend]

Gah, will I have to get on "insta" then??

[Offwidth]

Sideswipes at the BMC encouraging participation are lazy nonsense given their work on responsible access and conservation: BMC members will be a small minority of those parked and I doubt any of them will be blocking roads.

I can't speak for Will (though he did point out it was only semi-relevant), but from my point of view it wasn't about this specific issue, just a general swipe at the bullshit idea of "growing the sport".

As an aside, your complete inability to accept any criticism of anything the BMC ever does is quite boring, and for me at least backfires (i.e. your overly defensive posts make me think less of the BMC, not more). The idea that doing work on responsible access will mitigate all the negatives of increased volume of climbers is obviously bollocks. But yes, thanks a lot to the access people, they do lots of good work.

I'm saying it as I see it and you are free to childishly misrepresent that if you want. If you really feel my ramblings move  you away from BMC support that's both sad and very odd. People should join only if they see what is going on and recognise the good themselves. I do feel lucky to see as much of the organisation as anyone not in the central structure or an employee.

Shark is right that pushing to grow the sport is simply not something the BMC has done. Personally I have no issue with BMC member growth as long as it's for people who share the values of the organisation and if involved in climbing accept the participation statement but wish to climb anyway. I don't want people dragged into climbing to increase BMC numbers and income or mass recruitment that dilutes the organisational values. If the BMC moved that way the member backlash would be fast, as it was for Climb Britain. Yet growth in outdoor climbing numbers is happening anyway (especially bouldering)  and although most are not BMC members the BMC are the key organisation promoting good practice around that and doing their best to sort out access problems that might arise from greater traffic.

For the record my attendance at area meetings started as the BMC had helped my student club on many occasions with practical advice on how to to deal with safety (in a much better way than our SU wanted) and by putting on some excellent training. My political involvement with the BMC started when Mark Vallance explained the undemocratic nature of club block votes. I criticised the BMC on that and was part of the campaign for change. Two decades back Dave Musgrove and co had to rescue the BMC when they almost destroyed themselves financially (the BMC communicated so poorly back then almost no-one even knew it happened in the wider membership). I criticised the BMC not retaining a volunteer officer post as Martin Koscis had in my view done a fabulous job in recruiting and supporting new volunteers doing useful work. I criticised the BMC on not pushing back harder against the Motion of no Confidence (possibly not even a constitutionally valid motion). I criticised the way Climb Britain was handled (maybe a useful sub brand for some aspects of indoor activities but not for the organisation as a whole).  Currently I disagree with the seemingly endless dominance of debate on governance over more important issues for most members, most key volunteers and staff. I've criticised unprofessional and spiteful attacks on a member staff by a Director who resigned.  I think all of the Directors failed to some extent when that rash of resignations happened in 2020. If I agree with other's public criticisms of the BMC I will say so, if not I will say why, as my opinion in a democratic structure. Yet the guidebook and access and conservation work is what I'm most satisfied by. That's my focus, others are more into: technical issues or safety; the BMC charities (ACT, Mountain Heritage, The Land and Property trust); equity and diversity efforts, climbing festivals, foreign climber exchanges, youth comps, elite performance development, the aqueducts.....

[Stu Littlefair]

[Will Hunt]

Maybe only a semi relevant point but this is one of the issues with increasing participation. When the BMC adopted a policy of getting more people into climbing/hillwalking I can remember lots of talk about polish, work gear placements, queueing for routes etc, but I don't think we talked much about the difficulty of getting parked!

Believe it or not, I didn't actually have any intention of taking a swipe at the BMC with this. There was a conversation a few years ago about whether the BMC should seek to promote participation, and I was recalling this to highlight that the main issues we thought were going to be a problem (the damage to the rock climbing experience itself once you were on footpaths/at the crag) were not the weakest link in the chain, which is the parking. When I think of crags with dodgy access, it's almost always the parking situation that locals/landowners get pissed off with first.

I'd thought that the BMC did adopt the policy, but it seems I've misremembered that. Regardless, even if the BMC had followed this policy I'm certain that the numbers of people they pulled into climbing would have been dwarfed by those that found their way in through seeing people going blob jumping on Instagram. Has the crossfit bubble burst yet?

[shark]

There was a conversation a few years ago about whether the BMC should seek to promote participation, and I was recalling this to highlight that the main issues we thought were going to be a problem (the damage to the rock climbing experience itself once you were on footpaths/at the crag) were not the weakest link in the chain, which is the parking. When I think of crags with dodgy access, it's almost always the parking situation that locals/landowners get pissed off with first.

I'd thought that the BMC did adopt the policy, but it seems I've misremembered that. Regardless, even if the BMC had followed this policy I'm certain that the numbers of people they pulled into climbing would have been dwarfed by those that found their way in through seeing people going blob jumping on Instagram. Has the crossfit bubble burst yet?

“Responsible participation” was a proposed aim in the ORG report but the report was not adopted in totality (“the Manchester compromise”).

It’s always a touchy subject. On the one hand the underlying raison d’être for Sport England is growing participation (both getting participants to do more and encouraging new participants) and grant funding is directed accordingly. On the other hand many members are against it particularly BMC 30 types who call it ‘proselytisation’.

The Office is caught in the middle undertaking participation type stuff but not allowed to reference it in that way 🙃

[teestub]

Wait, so the BMC don’t have a participation growth policy, but want money from Sport England who only give it to people who want to grow participation, and the office is actually doing work to grow participation currently?

[Offwidth]

It is indeed grey. There are small initiatives that are about responsible participation, like the outdoor youth meets. There is a real participation growth possibility for indoor climbng and outdoors with hill walking. The main BMC internal political problem area is any push for growth in outdoor climbing, especially sensitive would be Sport England funded growth in that area. Membership growth isn't the same thing as participation growth as most climbers and hill walkers are not BMC members.

I agree with Shark on the sensitivity of the Manchester compromise. I can see some aspects coming under pressure in the next few years, given the financial strains built in from covid, that if handled badly has the risk of a new Climb Britain style fuss. The key to me in avoiding such problems is ensuring the Board and Council don't stray too far from understanding the general membership views. I'm worried the seemingly endless aggro and governance focus is putting off experienced people from involvement. The two latest elected CNDs were the only ones prepared to stand from Council. There are signs some local areas are struggling to get experienced members to stand for Council and quite a few experienced Council members are leaving for other reasons this year (end of terms etc).

Will is right to point out that other things relating to general increases in outdoor participation, especially parking, can lead to serious problems. This is happening anyway irrespective of anything the BMC does.  On parking, the pressure isn't mainly from BMC members but it's a good idea the local access teams engage with the issues. More generally the BMC should be campaigning on good practice.

[shark]

Wait, so the BMC don’t have a participation growth policy, but want money from Sport England who only give it to people who want to grow participation, and the office is actually doing work to grow participation currently?

That’s my take. If you big up climbing achievements on SM that potentially increases participation. If you run a free course for youths from disadvantaged areas/backgrounds that increases participation. Running the Youth Climbing Series comps promotes participation.

These and a host of other similar BMC initiatives are minor in impact compared to bigger trends out there increasing participation such as the exponential growth of climbing walls and the buzz that Olympic climbing will have.

It would be whacky for a National Sporting body not to want to push its sport and I think some sense of proportion should be applied on discussions. Even UKB promotes participation, hopefully of the responsible sort..

[spidermonkey09]

That’s my take. If you big up climbing achievements on SM that potentially increases participation. If you run a free course for youths from disadvantaged areas/backgrounds that increases participation. Running the Youth Climbing Series comps promotes participation.

These and a host of other similar BMC initiatives are minor in impact compared to bigger trends out there increasing participation such as the exponential growth of climbing walls and the buzz that Olympic climbing will have.

It would be whacky for a National Sporting body not to want to push its sport and I think some sense of proportion should be applied on discussions. Even UKB promotes participation, hopefully of the responsible sort..

This is a profoundly sensible post. Lock the thread, quick! 

[lagerstarfish]

The sport is growing anyway, the trick is managing it where you can in a sensible way. Maybe if everyone here who has an IG account stopped posting about their climbing achievements and how much fun they are having

Go on then, I’m in. Can we get #chosschasers trending to spread the load?

If we grade choss for how hard we think it will be when all the holds have fallen off, then "everyone" will want to get on it