[krzepa]

Hi all

I thought that I am gonna bring up this to discussion and see what you think about it.
The last few weeks we have been fortune with nice grit weather. I have been out a lots of times. The last two my visits were to Shipley Glen and both days were great. However both days upset me in same way how little we care about nature and how ignorant we can be.
Around Parker area I have noticed some boulder conservation work was going on. Which is great however can we please think more before we do this. I am talking about birch tree just between Parker and that small newish boulder problem above the tree. Two of the biggish bottom brunches were cut down sometimes in march leaving the tree with massive wounds. I think this is just a sine of our ignorance because if we would care a bit more about trees should know that this is not the best time of the year for a birch tree to be trim  (for future the best time is end of summer and autumn when the tree is not juicing and the wound can heal easier) or if we would not have the idea at least doing some research before would do too.
I know that some of you would say that this is just a tree but if we put together all the impact which we do it  will be much more.

Hope that this post make us a bit more thoughtful and we be more careful what we are doing and how this is affecting our nature.

Cheers;
Kasia       

[Bradders]

Thanks for posting, worthwhile discussion. It's been mentioned a few times when I've been out recently that some things could do with being trimmed back to improve the condition of the rock, but I certainly have no idea how to do this whilst also protecting the trees involved. Would be good if there were some guidance available.

[Will Hunt]

There's been some amateur tree surgery around the YMC Wall area at the Glen. I think it was a birch that was affected - I'm not sure if it was climbers or someone else but it was certainly noticed and commented on by climbers who didn't think a good job had been done.
I'm not opposed to removing birch trees or their limbs when they encroach on boulders. I think local conservation folk like the Caley rangers and National Trust people at Brimham don't have a huge problem with it either (though obvs you'd need to check before you dived in) - particularly with birch which they seem to regard as a bit of a weed.
Thanks for the knowledge about the best time to chop. I didn't know that. Does the same rule apply to all trees?

[Mike Tyson]

Here you go:

https://www.trees.org.uk/Help-Advice/Help-for-Tree-Owners/Guide-to-Tree-Pruning

Birch are very common, can take some serious flack before they will perish. Pruning trees isn’t rocket science but there are certain things to consider like time of year, location of pruning cut, size of cut etc etc.

[Mike Tyson]

Oh and I should add you need to be very careful cutting other peoples trees. No idea who the legal owner would be of the trees in mention. And make sure they aren’t subject to a TPO (Tree Preservation Order) or that they’re in a conservation area. Get caught lopping one of those and you’re in deep shit.

[teestub]

Also good to make sure that you definitely know what species of tree you’re lopping down, and don’t accidentally use a really rare one to make a landing area! https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/destruction_of_rare_tree_at_warton_lancashire-646336

[Will Hunt]

Oh and I should add you need to be very careful cutting other peoples trees. No idea who the legal owner would be of the trees in mention. And make sure they aren’t subject to a TPO (Tree Preservation Order) or that they’re in a conservation area. Get caught lopping one of those and you’re in deep shit.

The most definitive source I know of for environmental designations is Natural England's Magic GIS (https://magic.defra.gov.uk/).
How do you figure out if there is a tree protection order? Are they very rare or mainly applied to grand old historic trees?

[mrjonathanr]

Off topic(ish) but I saw a programme about the dating of this tree, high in the Californian Sierra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah_(tree)

The programme explained how coring techniques were practised on other trees, cutting down the odd one or two. Including one they subsequently realised was over 4,000 yrs old, Prometheus.

Edit muddled dates

[teestub]

I remember hearing that story on RadioLab, wasn’t the guy who cut it down was a staunch conservationist and was absolutely gutted?

Joe Kinder got in a lot of trouble for damaging one a few years ago.

[mrjonathanr]

Yes, think he thought he was practising on something not too old. Till the samples got back from the lab.

[J_duds]

Oh and I should add you need to be very careful cutting other peoples trees. No idea who the legal owner would be of the trees in mention. And make sure they aren’t subject to a TPO (Tree Preservation Order) or that they’re in a conservation area. Get caught lopping one of those and you’re in deep shit.

The most definitive source I know of for environmental designations is Natural England's Magic GIS (https://magic.defra.gov.uk/).
How do you figure out if there is a tree protection order? Are they very rare or mainly applied to grand old historic trees?

You could use:
https://www.gov.uk/apply-work-on-protected-tree

For Shipley this takes you to:
https://cbmdc.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=bfd3c162377c40858f3a23878f3b19de

On my tiny mobile screen but this shows TPOs to the south and east at Shipley Glen.

[PeteHukb]

This is all of vague interest to me as the Glen is my local crag - but not because I've got any felling plans, I should say.

Done a bit of digging. Most of the Glen is owned by Bradford Council and not under any TPO but there's a stretch at the southern end (as per J duds link) which is under a TPO (as a whole woodland, not just for specified trees) and this isn't owned by the Council (https://datahub.bradford.gov.uk/ebase/datahubext.eb?search=Bradford+Council+land+and+property+assets). It's the area often on maps as Trench Wood, and some brief googling doesn't reveal an owner. Hard to be precise without going and collecting some GPS co-ordinates but seems to roughly correspond to Wood's Wall southwards (but possibly excluding the few bits beyond the Green Traverse).

So if the recent gardening has been at the YMC wall end of things, it's well away from the TPO at least - although I presume the council could theoretically still have you got destruction of property or whatever. Although judging by the number of dead branches on trees which threaten to cave someone's skull in every time it's windy, the council don't seem to be paying too much attention to looking after the trees here anyway.

[Mike Tyson]

Local authority will sometimes have maps on their website showing where TPO trees are. If not you can request the info from them for a specific area. Most TPOs are on individual trees but they can be for groups of them and larger woodlands. Anyone can apply to put a TPO on any tree, at any time. Once on, it has to be treated with mega respect. You will have your pants pulled down in a flash if you’re caught doing something naughty to one! 

Conservation areas are just that, areas. They cover localised areas around the country. Again, they need a planning application submitted to do any works and they can be refused. Trying to get permission to work on a TPO tree is very hard indeed.

[Johnny Brown]

Yes, think he thought he was practising on something not too old. Till the samples got back from the lab.

That's not the story I've heard. Galen Rowell tells the story of the corer breaking in some detail in more than one of his books. This from wiki:

Here, stories diverge. It is not clear whether Currey requested, or Forest Service personnel suggested, that he cut down and section the tree in lieu of coring it. There is also some uncertainty as to why a core sample could not be obtained. One version has it that he broke or lodged his only long increment borer and could not obtain another before the end of the field season;[7] another claims he broke two of them, while another implies that a core sample was too difficult to obtain and also would not provide as much definitive information as a full cross-section of the tree. Currey said that the tree cores were too small and difficult to read so he used a chain saw and cut the tree down.[8]

In addition, there are conflicting views of Prometheus's uniqueness in the Wheeler Peak grove. It is reported that Currey and/or the Forest Service personnel who authorized the cutting believed the tree was just one of many large, very old trees in the grove. Others, at least one of whom was involved in the decision-making and tree cutting, believe that the tree was clearly unique — obviously older than other trees in the area.[citation needed]

At least one person involved says that Currey knew that to be true at the time, although there is no known admission from Currey that he did, and others have disputed that the tree, based on observation alone, was obviously much older than the others.[3][8]

[Will Hunt]

On the subject of crag care, one of my local crags has been subject to a lot of forestry work lately which has included cutting down some very large masses of rhododendrons. These have been chucked over the top of the crag and now make accessing some of the boulders an agonising/impossible affair. What's left behind is an enormous, densely-packed birds nest of thin, snappy branches. Before I get stuck in, does anyone have experience of clearing this sort of material? I could try and just pull them back from the crag edge, I could try and trample them down (though when the branches snap they tend to leave sharp spears behind so this could be hairy), I could attack them with some sort of machete like tool? The hacking approach sounds easiest but I think the branches might be too light and springy to get much of a result.

I'm actually kind of amazed that they've left these piles in situ. They have a history of fires up there and the stuff is so dry that the whole hillside is like a tinderbox. Kids go up there to party/BBQ/bivi so it just seems a bit negligent.

[Fiend]

[SA Chris]

On the subject of crag care, one of my local crags has been subject to a lot of forestry work lately which has included cutting down some very large masses of rhododendrons. These have been chucked over the top of the crag and now make accessing some of the boulders an agonising/impossible affair. What's left behind is an enormous, densely-packed birds nest of thin, snappy branches. Before I get stuck in, does anyone have experience of clearing this sort of material? I could try and just pull them back from the crag edge, I could try and trample them down (though when the branches snap they tend to leave sharp spears behind so this could be hairy), I could attack them with some sort of machete like tool? The hacking approach sounds easiest but I think the branches might be too light and springy to get much of a result.

I'm actually kind of amazed that they've left these piles in situ. They have a history of fires up there and the stuff is so dry that the whole hillside is like a tinderbox. Kids go up there to party/BBQ/bivi so it just seems a bit negligent.

Sometimes you can just pull the whole clump away. Otherwise wear some old jeans and walking boots and go for the trample down option. Will need to be pretty dry, but generally rhododendrons aren't too bad for leaving sharp jaggy bits. Still be careful though.

Can the issue be highlighted to the landowner?

[Will Hunt]

Ta.

Can the issue be highlighted to the landowner?

Maybe. But it's a flakey access agreement as it is so maybe the less attention drawn to climbers the better.
I think I'll start off trying to pull it back and see how it goes.

[SA Chris]

OK, get some decent gloves.

[bolehillbilly]

Could you get an old pad and trample them down on the pad? I've done this for thick brambles a few times and means you get some slope protection and don't get your leg stock in a big void between the twigs .

[Will Hunt]

Could you get an old pad and trample them down on the pad? I've done this for thick brambles a few times and means you get some slope protection and don't get your leg stock in a big void between the twigs .

Maybe in places, but the mass is so big in places you wouldn't be able to easily get the pad on top to then start stamping down!

[tomtom]

I bought a Bill Hook to clear a very overgrown garden once - great bit of kit



Hard work though...

[dunnyg]

I recon some of the locals might have something similar under their car seat or in the boot if you ask around?