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Thread split: Star quality (Read 11566 times)

Teaboy

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#25 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 09:53:29 pm

I guess I get wound up by going somewhere like the Wye Valley and it's a 3 star fest in places vs Llanberis Pass where there are genuinely loads of 3 star routes.

I'd be wary of going to White Goods crag then, although its got 18 3 star routes it probably isn't better than Dinas Cromlech

SA Chris

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#26 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 10:02:43 pm
I guess that's what 1 or 2 stars are for - the Wye Valley (!) - it's the overuse if 3 stars of late that pisses me off

Then routes on slightly scruffy looking single pitch inland trad limestone crags would never get 3 stars; they lack the aesthetics of sedimentary rocks, the swagger of the big sport crags, the grandeur of mountain or moorland routes, or the atmosphere of sea cliffs.

They are not my favourite thing either, but some people love them. Doesn't mean you can't compare the relative merits of the routes in that area though.

Bonjoy

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#27 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 10:54:40 pm
Limestone is sedimentary.  :geek:

SA Chris

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#28 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 18, 2021, 08:36:06 am
Fair point. I was (and I think you know I was) trying to lump gritstone and sandstone together in one, and failing.

Anyhoo, point I was trying to make is grading should be relative to the crag / area, but I do agree with shurt that Shorncliffe (assuming that's his specific beef with Wye Valley?) seems to have a lot of 3 star routes, but a quick look on UKC you can see the spread of stars is pretty even, just that no-one notices the heap of unstarred stuff.

petejh

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#29 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 18, 2021, 09:55:56 am

I guess I get wound up by going somewhere like the Wye Valley and it's a 3 star fest in places vs Llanberis Pass where there are genuinely loads of 3 star routes.

I'd be wary of going to White Goods crag then, although its got 18 3 star routes it probably isn't better than Dinas Cromlech

Apples and oranges. The DT routes at White Goods are vastly superior to those on the Cromlech, which has none to my knowledge?
(however compared to Clogwyn Manod it's over-starred.. ;) )

edit: #climbing_is_my_passion
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 10:04:01 am by petejh »

SA Chris

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#30 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 18, 2021, 10:24:40 am
Compared to Newtyle they are both shit though :)

Fultonius

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#31 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 18, 2021, 11:31:48 am
4* have been around in the SMC guides for a while now. Apparently reserved for routes of the greatest quality and standing in the UK. Still end up with some shite like the old man of hoy and either the bat or something on Ben nevis is meant to be very average for 4*...

duncan

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#32 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 18, 2021, 12:26:26 pm
4* have been around in the SMC guides for a while now. Apparently reserved for routes of the greatest quality and standing in the UK. Still end up with some shite like the old man of hoy and either the bat or something on Ben nevis is meant to be very average for 4*...

Isn't this a gentle dig at Sassenachs and the Welsh? The best routes in Scotland have to be worth more stars than anything south of the border! Gary gives The Original Route three stars on a four star scale and I expect it is for an E1 leader. GMB and For A Few Dollars More are generally recognised as better quality routes.

I don't have a strong opinion about generosity of stars as long as you are aware of the system in use.  A two star route on Cloggy (Mordor, for example) is better than most three star routes anywhere else. Subtract one star (and half an E-grade) if the route belongs to the guidebook writer, especially in Pembroke. The idea that White Goods has more three star routes than Huntsman's Leap did make me laugh though. The main problem with the RockFaxification of starring is many people now think no stars automatically means a bad experience and two star routes are hardly worth bothering with.



sherlock

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#33 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 18, 2021, 12:34:40 pm
The Bat is worth 3* for the climbing and an extra star for the history. Location and history sure count for something IMO.

petejh

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#34 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 18, 2021, 12:42:59 pm
In my SMC Ben Nevis guide The Bat is 3 stars, looks like it's often wet and grimy in that groove. Only Torro, Centurion and Titan's Wall get 4 stars. Torro seems fair enough, amazing journey. Centuion a bit meh I though, '3-stars meh' that is. Titan's Wall is basically one long (amazing) pitch to an abseil off from what I can gather.. maybe 4 stars a bit generous? King Kong would be 4 stars if it wasn't marred by death choss top pitches which many people don't bother with and ab off instead. Gemini and Shield Direct also get 4 stars, again probably fair enough although yet to be in Scotland when they've been in nick.

 

Fultonius

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#35 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 18, 2021, 01:14:55 pm
In my SMC Ben Nevis guide The Bat is 3 stars, looks like it's often wet and grimy in that groove. Only Torro, Centurion and Titan's Wall get 4 stars. Torro seems fair enough, amazing journey. Centuion a bit meh I though, '3-stars meh' that is. Titan's Wall is basically one long (amazing) pitch to an abseil off from what I can gather.. maybe 4 stars a bit generous? King Kong would be 4 stars if it wasn't marred by death choss top pitches which many people don't bother with and ab off instead. Gemini and Shield Direct also get 4 stars, again probably fair enough although yet to be in Scotland when they've been in nick.

Centurion is better in winter ;-)  (well, that said...I've not yet done it in summer)  #humblebrag

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#36 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 18, 2021, 09:51:47 pm
Isn't this a gentle dig at Sassenachs and the Welsh?
That, and being pure bollox too (with a hint of the usual nationalistic bollox of course).

SA Chris

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#37 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 08:26:21 am
Only Torro, Centurion and Titan's Wall get 4 stars.

In Scottish Rock Climbs they were a bit more generous, -1 Direct, Tower Ridge, Bullroar, all get 4* too, plus loads of other routes around that don't have the historic significance of Ben routes.

petejh

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#38 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 10:14:35 am
Ah yes, Bullroar, Minus 1 Direct and Tower Ridge are also 4 stars in the SMC Ben guide. Hadn't looked to the left at those pages!

Ledge Route also gets 4 stars as a winter route.. i think it's a good climb but I'm not sure it's 'that' great relative to various other grade II ridges around the UK. Low grade ridges of that length are fairly generic and for me don't stand out until you introduce more length and/or difficulty - Tower Ridge and Skye Ridge being the most obvious great ones.

SA Chris

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#39 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 10:58:34 am
Yep, it's no Aonach Eagach. I've not done it though, so can't comment, maybe it's spectacular terrain at such an easy grade.

Johnny Brown

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#40 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 11:22:57 am
Gary gives The Original Route three stars on a four star scale and I expect it is for an E1 leader. GMB and For A Few Dollars More are generally recognised as better quality routes.

I thought A few dollars more was right at two stars. The summit is possibly worth a star on its own, but there is much better rock to be found on Rora head. I've done perhaps 3 routes that felt a level of quality above anything else: Prozac link, Antiworlds, Prophesy of Drowning.

andy moles

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#41 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 11:31:20 am

I think I was part reacting against what I perceived to be the devaluing of quality by other guidebooks, and first ascentionists with vested interests in their babies being the most beautiful. Maybe I was a little bit harsh but I still think I mostly got it right*, provided the reader can accept 1 star is a good route.
Of course it depends on having a good grasp of what the whole of the UK, or the whole of N.Wales or the NWL area has to offer. I'm far from all-knowing but I think I have a good rounded knowledge when it comes to routes.


I'm with you on this - though also agree you were probably a bit harsh at times in NWL, with Pen Trwyn being the main casualty!

I'm all for starring on a national scale, but like you say, this entails people accepting that 1 star = good. The Llanberis guide is a good example, where 1 star routes are always worth doing.

Star inflation is such a blight in some recent guidebooks. I've climbed some utterly crap 2* additions on slate recently. But even if a book is internally consistent, you lose the distinction between the genuinely excellent stuff and the 'local' classics. If this means certain guidebooks have hardly any routes with more than a star, so what?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 11:51:10 am by andy moles »

shurt

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#42 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 11:34:36 am
Fair point. I was (and I think you know I was) trying to lump gritstone and sandstone together in one, and failing.

Anyhoo, point I was trying to make is grading should be relative to the crag / area, but I do agree with shurt that Shorncliffe (assuming that's his specific beef with Wye Valley?) seems to have a lot of 3 star routes, but a quick look on UKC you can see the spread of stars is pretty even, just that no-one notices the heap of unstarred stuff.

Oh the Wye is just a pile of shit Chris. If it was near some decent crags no one would go to it. If I was in charge I'd ban 3 stars in the whole area.

I get there are people who love certain  areas but that doesn't mean they can just dole out 3 stars willie nillie. It has to be consistent nationally

andy moles

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#43 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 11:39:10 am
Yep, it's no Aonach Eagach. I've not done it though, so can't comment, maybe it's spectacular terrain at such an easy grade.

Ledge Route is mostly a well-positioned walk - the most interesting section on it is avoidable. Getting 4* might be something to do with Andy Nisbet's determination to champion lower grade routes, I'm not sure.

As for the other 4* routes on Carn Dearg, I've done them all with the exception of Centurion, oddly - apart from Torro, they're all best finished at the Titan's Wall abseil, or the abiding memory is tainted by crappy final pitches.

grimer

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#44 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 11:49:01 am
I used to have a thing about stars and that was to try and avoid putting things up to three stars. That's cos three stars was almost a kiss of death. If a climber went on one and had anything other than a incredible experience then there us some disappointment. Two stars leaves room for personal experience.

Four stars always seemed like a joke. What poor climb could survive that billing? I think I have done a couple - Western Front at Almscliffe used to get 4 - great route with a history, and some E2 on the Shelter Stone that's in Extreme Rock - amazing day out with a cool pitch up a corner that was a bit sore on the feet.

I'm wary of giving three stars.

andy moles

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#45 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 11:53:39 am
Four stars always seemed like a joke. What poor climb could survive that billing?

 :agree:

shurt

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#46 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 12:20:43 pm
Western Front at Almscliffe used to get 4

Great Western wasn't it in the Millenium Grit brick guide?!

remus

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#47 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 12:39:52 pm
Oh the Wye is just a pile of shit Chris. If it was near some decent crags no one would go to it. If I was in charge I'd ban 3 stars in the whole area.

That's an exaggeration. Lots of stuff on GO wall, for example, would get 3 stars anywhere in the country.

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#48 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 12:44:03 pm
Great Western at Almscliff gets 4 stars in my 1998 Yorkshire Grit guide.

Bizarrely it was the many superlatives conferred upon it that stopped me ever climbing it. I used to make the occasional trip to Almscliff about 20 years back, as I had a mate who lived nearby. I was a steady HVS climber at the time, however I never gave Great Western a go as I alway felt that I wanted to be climbing really well to fully appreciate the only 4 star route in the guide (with optional 5 star finish!).

As such my trusty old Yorkshire Grit guide (John Dunne on the front cover mostly covered by the duct tape that holds the book together) has most of the HVS’s at Almscliff ticked off, but not the one with the most stars.

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#49 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 19, 2021, 01:00:38 pm
Great Western only belongs in a "Star Quality" thread as a counterpoint to the "quality" bit. A dismal and mediocre link-up that ruins two good strong independent lines by the worst climbing on either of them. I did it as an HVS/E1 leader and the pleasure of the WF 5 Star Finish barely compensated for the uncouth yobbery of the traverse.

If you were feeling generous you could perhaps scrape it into 2 stars (one for the position, one for the finish), maybe. Demon Wall and Overhanging Groove (now THAT is a line) are proper quality HVSes at the crag.

 

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