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Thread split: Star quality (Read 11569 times)

petejh

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Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 11:51:22 am
The search for the holy grail of a 3-star grit 8b remains?

Have you not been to Yorkshire?

Tongue was slightly in cheek..

High Fidelity? Cypher? The Ace? All 3 stars for quality or just for hardness and who did them? Genuine question.

Will Hunt

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#1 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 12:00:12 pm
The search for the holy grail of a 3-star grit 8b remains?

Have you not been to Yorkshire?

Tongue was slightly in cheek..

High Fidelity? Cypher? All 3 stars for quality or just for hardness and who did them? Genuine question.

Fucking hell, what does a problem have to do round here to get three stars? Three stars isn't really supposed to be some sort of ultra-rare Michelin star, it just indicates that a problem would be something that might draw the attention of someone visiting from a different area (at least, that's my understanding).

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#2 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 12:16:16 pm
The search for the holy grail of a 3-star grit 8b remains?

Have you not been to Yorkshire?

Tongue was slightly in cheek..

High Fidelity? Cypher? The Ace? All 3 stars for quality or just for hardness and who did them? Genuine question.

Haha likewise.

But yeah if Cypher, High Fidelity, Lanny Bassham and Rhythm aren't worth all the stars for any measure you could think of then I don't know what is!

petejh

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#3 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 12:20:35 pm
Fucking hell, what does a problem have to do round here to get three stars? Three stars isn't really supposed to be some sort of ultra-rare Michelin star, it just indicates that a problem would be something that might draw the attention of someone visiting from a different area (at least, that's my understanding).

Not mine - in NWL I gave climbs 3 stars if I considered they were exceptional quality relative to stuff in a national context - i.e. whole of the UK, 2 stars if excellent quality relative to stuff within a regional context (i.e. whole of N.Wales), 1 star if exceptional quality within the guidebook area (i.e. whole of N.Wales Limestone).
A lot of people thought it was harsh, but a lot of people also thought it was how it should be. I think I was part reacting against what I perceived to be the devaluing of quality by other guidebooks, and first ascentionists with vested interests in their babies being the most beautiful. Maybe I was a little bit harsh but I still think I mostly got it right*, provided the reader can accept 1 star is a good route.
Of course it depends on having a good grasp of what the whole of the UK, or the whole of N.Wales or the NWL area has to offer. I'm far from all-knowing but I think I have a good rounded knowledge when it comes to routes.

(* I definitely fucked up giving BB's 'The Beauty' only one star though!)

Anyway OT.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 12:30:04 pm by petejh »

Duma

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#4 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 12:31:45 pm
3 stars if I considered they were exceptional quality relative to stuff in a national context - i.e. whole of the UK, 2 stars if excellent quality relative to stuff within a regional context (i.e. whole of N.Wales), 1 star if exceptional quality within the guidebook area (i.e. whole of N.Wales Limestone).

I thought this was how it was meant to work (although in my head 1 star was for good in context of the crag, rather than guidebook) - Though obviously UKC has fucked it up, along with so many things (see V to font below 7A etc etc)

Will Hunt

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#5 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 12:34:59 pm
Fucking hell, what does a problem have to do round here to get three stars? Three stars isn't really supposed to be some sort of ultra-rare Michelin star, it just indicates that a problem would be something that might draw the attention of someone visiting from a different area (at least, that's my understanding).

Not mine - in NWL I gave climbs 3 stars if I considered they were exceptional quality relative to stuff in a national context - i.e. whole of the UK, 2 stars if excellent quality relative to stuff within a regional context (i.e. whole of N.Wales), 1 star if exceptional quality within the guidebook area (i.e. whole of N.Wales Limestone).
A lot of people thought it was harsh, but a lot of people also thought it was how it should be. I think I was part reacting against what I perceived to be the devaluing of quality by other guidebooks, and first ascentionists with vested interests in their babies being the most beautiful. Maybe I was a little bit harsh but I still think I mostly got it right*, provided the reader can accept 1 star is a good route.
Of course it depends on having a good grasp of what the whole if the UK or the whole of N.Wales or the NWL area has to offer, I'm far from all-knowing but I think I have a good rounded knowledge when it comes to routes.

(* I definitely fucked up giving BB's 'The Beauty' only one star though!)

Anyway OT.

I don't think that's unreasonable but would say that there's a good argument in there for creating a four star system, with the four-star routes being those national/world ultra classics. The three star system as it's generally applied doesn't leave much resolution for distinguishing between the merely extremely good and those which have something extra - an aura around them. Maybe the fourth star is superfluous because those routes that would get one don't need stars to promote them - their reputation speaks for itself. The system you describe accounts for that but doesn't offer much resolution at the lower end - which is arguably quite important in a definitive guide. It's nice to be able to separate out routes that aren't really worthwhile unless you really have done everything else, and those which have some merit for the local.

Bonjoy

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#6 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 12:44:51 pm
3 stars if I considered they were exceptional quality relative to stuff in a national context - i.e. whole of the UK, 2 stars if excellent quality relative to stuff within a regional context (i.e. whole of N.Wales), 1 star if exceptional quality within the guidebook area (i.e. whole of N.Wales Limestone).

I thought this was how it was meant to work (although in my head 1 star was for good in context of the crag, rather than guidebook) - Though obviously UKC has fucked it up, along with so many things (see V to font below 7A etc etc)
This would be problematic as assignment of one star would be heavily skewed by the size and average quality at the crag.  A very good route at a crag with many good routes might get no stars, while an objectively poor route at a poor crag might get one star. I think it's more helpful for people evaluating whether or not to visit a new crag if stars are assigned in principle on an equal basis, at least within any given guide.


Will - I agree. It's unhelpful when choosing crags/routes if say >65% of everything is lumped into a no star category, when you know this includes a very wide range of quality. IMO starring should have the highest resolution that the knowledge pool allows. Ideally any knowledge gaps should be acknowledged - I quite liked the old dagger symbols for this.

gme

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#7 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 12:59:01 pm
Fucking hell, what does a problem have to do round here to get three stars? Three stars isn't really supposed to be some sort of ultra-rare Michelin star, it just indicates that a problem would be something that might draw the attention of someone visiting from a different area (at least, that's my understanding).

Not mine - in NWL I gave climbs 3 stars if I considered they were exceptional quality relative to stuff in a national context - i.e. whole of the UK, 2 stars if excellent quality relative to stuff within a regional context (i.e. whole of N.Wales), 1 star if exceptional quality within the guidebook area (i.e. whole of N.Wales Limestone).
A lot of people thought it was harsh, but a lot of people also thought it was how it should be. I think I was part reacting against what I perceived to be the devaluing of quality by other guidebooks, and first ascentionists with vested interests in their babies being the most beautiful. Maybe I was a little bit harsh but I still think I mostly got it right*, provided the reader can accept 1 star is a good route.
Of course it depends on having a good grasp of what the whole if the UK or the whole of N.Wales or the NWL area has to offer, I'm far from all-knowing but I think I have a good rounded knowledge when it comes to routes.

(* I definitely fucked up giving BB's 'The Beauty' only one star though!)

Anyway OT.

I don't think that's unreasonable but would say that there's a good argument in there for creating a four star system, with the four-star routes being those national/world ultra classics. The three star system as it's generally applied doesn't leave much resolution for distinguishing between the merely extremely good and those which have something extra - an aura around them. Maybe the fourth star is superfluous because those routes that would get one don't need stars to promote them - their reputation speaks for itself. The system you describe accounts for that but doesn't offer much resolution at the lower end - which is arguably quite important in a definitive guide. It's nice to be able to separate out routes that aren't really worthwhile unless you really have done everything else, and those which have some merit for the local.
There is a 4 star system in use in North Wales 😉

Johnny Brown

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#8 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 01:09:11 pm
In some books. In others they've done away with it completely. I think there's a better argument for reducing the use of the star system than extending it. Reduce it to a single star or none, and you can highlight quality without automatic honeypotting and allowing for variations in taste etc.

Bonjoy

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#9 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 01:35:37 pm
 I think reducing the proportion of climbs that recieve stars is almost guaranteed to increase honeypotting.

shurt

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#10 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 01:44:10 pm
I think less stars is better.

There has certainly been in inflation in stars in guidebooks generally.

I thought 3 star routes weren't that common, at least that was my understanding when I started climbing, now it seems they're not.

Bonjoy

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#11 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 02:06:20 pm
It doesn't necessarily mean the books are suggesting things are better than they used to be (though obviously some areas have had a lot of development). There's just more differentiation on the basis of quality, often based on a superior level of knowledge (pre-internet guide writers had a much smaller knowledge base to work from). Yes, the brackets/goalposts may have shifted somewhat. Look at votes on logbooks and you'll see that the climbing public are infinitely more generous with stars than guidebook writers ever should or will be.
What is the upside of heavily conservative starring, other than some vague minimalist aesthetic value?

SA Chris

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#12 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 02:14:20 pm
It spreads the baseline?

shark

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#13 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 02:19:58 pm
Anyone considered slash stars? :look:

Fiend

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#14 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 02:33:02 pm
So many thread splits. You must need a lie down, Shark  :ang:

Also Pantontino has snuck in a "1.5 stars?" into NWB3.1, the rascal.

Liamhutch89

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#15 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 02:59:58 pm
Excellent, the weekly downgrade thread has moved on to stars. Count me in!   :goodidea:

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#16 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 03:07:48 pm
Also it's worth noting that North Wales Limestone does have the full compliment of stars overall, it's just most of them have been dumped on The Diamond and a few other of Pete's recently developed favourites / hidden gems  ;) ;D

James Malloch

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#17 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 03:14:47 pm
I'd support strawberries over stars, as per the Frankenjura guides.

shurt

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#18 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 03:15:13 pm
It doesn't necessarily mean the books are suggesting things are better than they used to be (though obviously some areas have had a lot of development). There's just more differentiation on the basis of quality, often based on a superior level of knowledge (pre-internet guide writers had a much smaller knowledge base to work from). Yes, the brackets/goalposts may have shifted somewhat. Look at votes on logbooks and you'll see that the climbing public are infinitely more generous with stars than guidebook writers ever should or will be.
What is the upside of heavily conservative starring, other than some vague minimalist aesthetic value?

I guess I get wound up by going somewhere like the Wye Valley and it's a 3 star fest in places vs Llanberis Pass where there are genuinely loads of 3 star routes. I think it would be good to have consistently nationally on the 3 star front

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#19 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 04:11:16 pm
I guess I get wound up by going somewhere like the Wye Valley and it's a 3 star fest in places vs Llanberis Pass where there are genuinely loads of 3 star routes. I think it would be good to have consistently nationally on the 3 star front
I'd much rather see stars used to differentiate quality over the local area, or perhaps even crag specific. Else you end up with no stars in your Wye Valley guide (for example..) and shit load in North Wales mountain areas. If the guide is decent, it will give you an idea in the descriptions how each crag generally ranks locally, then the stars give an idea within that.

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#20 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 04:44:43 pm
So maybe the split star rating actually needs to be a double rating - stars per guide and stars per UK....

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#21 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 05:05:26 pm
I love looking at old guidebooks and seeing what get stars. When I did the Peak Area quiz with Dave I came up with a round based on starred peak guidebook routes (sample questions: after Stanage, which Peak crag has the most *** E1s? & Name any two of the nine routes get three stars in the 1976 Chew Valley book) not many people did well which I think highlights the subjective nature.

I think the importance of stars is directly proportional to the amount of text about each route. Having said that, If I see a guide that’s extremely stingy with stars I don’t think “wow, these guidebook writers are so cool due to their high standards” it just puts me off going.

Look at votes on logbooks and you'll see that the climbing public are infinitely more generous with stars than guidebook writers ever should or will be.

Quite a lot of the humour on the amazing Best of UKC Instagram account comes from the fact that no matter what horrors or tribulations the comments describe, they’re usually followed up with “nice route”.   :lol:

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#22 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 05:32:35 pm
I think reducing the proportion of climbs that recieve stars is almost guaranteed to increase honeypotting.

I didn't suggest that. Simplest implementation would be all starred routes get 1 star, rest none. That would spread the load I think, and perhaps reduce the perceived worth differential between the 3* classics and the no stars. But there will always be the list tickers.

shurt

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#23 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 06:19:36 pm
I guess I get wound up by going somewhere like the Wye Valley and it's a 3 star fest in places vs Llanberis Pass where there are genuinely loads of 3 star routes. I think it would be good to have consistently nationally on the 3 star front
I'd much rather see stars used to differentiate quality over the local area, or perhaps even crag specific. Else you end up with no stars in your Wye Valley guide (for example..) and shit load in North Wales mountain areas. If the guide is decent, it will give you an idea in the descriptions how each crag generally ranks locally, then the stars give an idea within that.

I guess that's what 1 or 2 stars are for - the Wye Valley (!) - it's the overuse if 3 stars of late that pisses me off

petejh

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#24 Re: Thread split: Star quality
March 17, 2021, 08:35:42 pm
Also it's worth noting that North Wales Limestone does have the full compliment of stars overall, it's just most of them have been dumped on The Diamond and a few other of Pete's recently developed favourites / hidden gems  ;) ;D

cashforstars  :ninja:

 

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