UKBouldering.com

Physical augmentation, sporting performance and the body beautiful (Read 10197 times)

Loos3-tools

  • Guest
I was asked an interesting / thought provoking question on the covid thread based upon my slightly unpalatable observation about Dolly Parton's plastic surgery and the objective reality that her appearance has been altered and augmented with the presumed intention of combatting the ageing process and by doing enabling her to live a better, happier life through her new found normal. My original point was that it elicited some discomfort that someone who quite rightly has the freedom to access such drastic cosmetic health procedures without recourse to feelings of shame or guilt should impose those conditions on others for making their own health decisions. e.g. don't be a coward have X health procedure.

The thought provoking question, which I don't have any solid answer too was this -

If an athlete or individual, chooses to undergo surgery, to prolong their career/hobby life, where such surgery does not prolong life, or, could be considered “unnecessary” by purely objective standards; would you say that was better or worse, than somebody who chooses  cosmetic changes, for similar reasons?

Cosmetic surgery as with any other health intervention raises ethical, moral and philosophical questions. The relationships between positive individual and social experiences of cosmetic surgery and those experiences with potentially more dire or damaging consequences are not clear to me (e.g. BDD). I think we can say that surgical reconstruction of a body part that allows function or return of confidence after injury is not the same as surgery to augment or enhance performance or aesthetics. For example a runner who suffers a disabling cartilage tear that goes on to have an arthroscopy to allow them to run again or a person who has suffered a facial injury that is reconstructed to allow a more 'normal' life, is not the same as a person who chooses to have extensive cosmetic facial surgery for aesthetic reasons.

All that said if a climber chooses to have hooks grafted onto their hands or an extra limb grafted onto their forehead or even dose up on performance enhancing drugs get the edge for the send then go for it. Maybe this new found success will bring them the confidence they've always dreamed of and their achievements will leave ripples into eternity. A sort of immortality I guess.

Will Hunt

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Superworm is super-long
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma: +631/-115
    • Unknown Stones
Fiend is going in for his neck surgery soon.

I've got an image now of Fiend going to some underground illegal plastic surgeon in Frankfurt.
The surgery is a blood-spattered concrete cell with rusty saws hanging from the wall.
"Make my neck 2 inches longer. It's the only way for me to climb V5".
"Ze money first".
Herr Doctor then places Fiend on the slab and, at Fiend's own request, puts the ultra-high tempo GoreGrind music on the stereo. It blares out, an incandescent rage of sound.
The Doctor shrieks with laughter as he pulls and pulls at Fiend's head. The patient opens his mouth to let out a blood-curdling scream, but no sound can be heard over the waves of guitar thrashing, until with a sound of rending tissue and flesh, the head parts from Fiend's shoulders.

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
I've got bionic eyes, where does that fall? Had I not been flush for the first time in my life I'd still be wearing contacts. Surgery for convenience's sake and the best two and a half grand I ever spent.

Loos3-tools

  • Guest
Dunno, ask Oprah. Or the ukb equivalent

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20282
  • Karma: +641/-11
Does a Prince Albert count? (asking for a friend obvs...)

More seriously - this might be of interest to the topic (or not): Barratt, P. (2011) Vertical Worlds: technology, hybridity and the climbing body. Social and Cultural Geography, 12(4): 397-412. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14649365.2011.574797

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
I think you “ could “ say, that the athlete’s (participation incurred) injury (in a great many instances) was “self inflicted”, by lifestyle choice; whereas, cosmetic surgery to (subjectively) correct a perceived birth defect, seems equally, if not more, justifiable (if only from a mental health perspective).
I had some quite impressive orthodontics carried out as a child, for instance. That was to do with facial damage incurred on my first school day, that lead to some pretty odd growth in both upper and lower jaws.
I was quite off putting, in terms of my participation in academia and detrimental to my enjoyment of the school environment...
That included several “operations” under a general (having my mandible extended and wired to compensate for the lack of growth in the bone due to nerve damage).

I suppose this has made me a little more sympathetic to those who feel awkward in their own skin. Society and kids in particular, can be quite unpleasant to those who have any sort of peculiarities in their appearance. That is true, even where no such peculiarities are visible to the objective observer, if the wrong people discover their victim’s insecurities.
It is too simplistic to merely ascribe the desire for cosmetic surgeries, to vanity alone.
Plus, in the specific example of the “Pop Star”, it seems likely that professional considerations of prolonging her career, might have played into her choices.

Loos3-tools

  • Guest
Maybe she smashes cans and owns an island and a nightclub! Oh the wonderful world of cosmetic surgery.  To quote Dolly....

If I see something saggin', baggin' or draggin', I'm gonna get it nipped, tucked or sucked”



Loos3-tools

  • Guest
Does a Prince Albert count? (asking for a friend obvs...)

More seriously - this might be of interest to the topic (or not): Barratt, P. (2011) Vertical Worlds: technology, hybridity and the climbing body. Social and Cultural Geography, 12(4): 397-412. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14649365.2011.574797

I’ll keep zipped on this guff being as it’s representative of the sanitisation and performance enhanced culture which I find so odious

Liamhutch89

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1262
  • Karma: +87/-1
All that said if a climber chooses to have hooks grafted onto their hands or an extra limb grafted onto their forehead or even dose up on performance enhancing drugs get the edge for the send then go for it.

I like how the use of performance enhancing drugs is considered comparable here. My slightly controversial view is that I'd be amazed if some of the top climbers aren't already using them, on the basis that climbing is completely unregulated out of competition, whilst simultaneously being dependent on strength/fitness/etc. We know people do it in other sports. Hey, I've got old school mates who are on the stedz just to fill out the sleeves on an XL T-shirt down the pub.

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20282
  • Karma: +641/-11
Does a Prince Albert count? (asking for a friend obvs...)

More seriously - this might be of interest to the topic (or not): Barratt, P. (2011) Vertical Worlds: technology, hybridity and the climbing body. Social and Cultural Geography, 12(4): 397-412. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14649365.2011.574797

I’ll keep zipped on this guff being as it’s representative of the sanitisation and performance enhanced culture which I find so odious

Feel free to let rip... I like Paul - but didn’t agree with much of what he wrote (iirc).

Loos3-tools

  • Guest
All that said if a climber chooses to have hooks grafted onto their hands or an extra limb grafted onto their forehead or even dose up on performance enhancing drugs get the edge for the send then go for it.

I like how the use of performance enhancing drugs is considered comparable here. My slightly controversial view is that I'd be amazed if some of the top climbers aren't already using them, on the basis that climbing is completely unregulated out of competition, whilst simultaneously being dependent on strength/fitness/etc. We know people do it in other sports. Hey, I've got old school mates who are on the stedz just to fill out the sleeves on an XL T-shirt down the pub.

More power to them I say, if roids get you up project or help you feel happier about your body then why not? Why stop there. The body-mod culture is another level. Don’t like a limb? Simply have it removed. Want to look like a lizard? Great idea! With moral equivalence in power all things are equal unless we say they aren’t, I.e. some things are more equal than others. This has served America well for a fair while now and excused many a grim act.
Back to the roids, I watched an Eddie Hall documentary recently. You’ve gotta love that guy, such a character! The fragile grandiosity laid bare, I loved his apparently normal mum and dad and couldn’t help wondering what was under the surface. Anyway him and his strong man pals waddling around with thighs chaffing like a gathering of emperor penguins roided up to the max was a sight to behold. The moment with Arnie celebrating the deadlift record with him was wonderful. Talking of Arnie it was nice to see another promoter of healthy life choices condemning others for their healthy life choices recently. Gotta love the double standards with these people.


andy popp

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5525
  • Karma: +347/-5
None of us here have any idea why Dolly Parton has plastic surgery or how it makes her feel, and I don't think we should presume we do.

Loos3-tools

  • Guest
While non of us are her personal analyst, she’s spoken openly about her cosmetic surgery in lots of  interviews and at least the superficial conscious motivating factors. I guess we can go off that. Anyway it’s besides the point I was making. I really couldn’t give two hoots what Dolly chooses to do or not do.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
If you can't give two hoots why did you bother starting this thread?

erm, sam

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1311
  • Karma: +57/-3
So he can get peoples attention and find some meaning in his life.

andy popp

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5525
  • Karma: +347/-5
at least the superficial conscious motivating factors. I guess we can go off that.

From which, in the Covid thread, you presumed (your word) to analyse in her a "neurotic desire." Of course, her own stated understanding is merely superficial.

And as others have said, if you have no interest in what she does, then why start this thread, given it has its origins in your beliefs about her motivations.

Loos3-tools

  • Guest
So he can get peoples attention and find some meaning in his life.

Exactly, as it is so for all things human

Loos3-tools

  • Guest
If you can't give two hoots why did you bother starting this thread?

I started the thread to try and answer an interesting question posed by OMM without disturbing the covid thread further

abarro81

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
I'm not sure I buy the difference between some cosmetic procedures vs injury fixes, but perhaps it depends on the details. Getting something done aged 18 might be like PEDs or grafting on hooks, but having something done aged 40 in an attempt to still be 20 is probably the same as most injury-related surgeries. I've had a lot of angst the past few years about my injuries meaning things will never be what they were or what I want them to be. Having had that, I wouldn't begrudge anyone their attempts to regain or retain a certain feeling or bend the universe to their will though surgery. If you told me I could spend 10k and send my finger back to feeling like 25 I'd snap your hand off. I'm not ready to be old and maybe Dolly isn't either. Pity cosmetic surgeons don't do PIP joints really

webbo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5028
  • Karma: +141/-13
So he can get peoples attention and find some meaning in his life.

Exactly, as it is so for all things human
Is all your thinking so concrete.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
So he can get peoples attention and find some meaning in his life.

More like


Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
If you can't give two hoots why did you bother starting this thread?

I started the thread to try and answer an interesting question posed by OMM without disturbing the covid thread further

Actually, I fear you started the thread as an opportunity to voice some rather mocking opinions and assert/project moral authority over your chosen examples.

Your format, thus far, is to describe a “type”, highlight a specific example/person, then state that they are “free to chose” and/or make a “more power to them” type of statement. This constitutes around 10% of your input.
The remaining 90% is a tirade of disparaging and derogatory terms and descriptions of the examples and people you selected.

All rather “Straw Man”.

This nullifies the opening 10% and really doesn’t achieve much beyond “confused rant”.

You have yet to engage with anybody else’s counter arguments or discussion points. Giving the impression you began this merely as a vehicle to express your own, preconceived, prejudiced, opinions and have no intention to debate or consider/review your own views.


When challenged, you simply revert to the “Uriah Heep” mode (yes, I recall how badly you reacted to my using that term in one of your previous incarnations. That in itself, is telling).
You obfuscate and deny, leaping straight into the faux humble of “What do I know” or “I’m just asking questions” style of avoidance. A tactic which, somewhat flaccidly, hopes to deflect criticism of your previously (rather firmly) stated position.

But ultimately, this subject, plays straight back into one of your long standing obsessions and frequent posting topics. You could put it all under the banner of “self improvement”.

 Be it training, exercising, cosmetic surgery or even people attempting to improve their technical/academic knowledge that underpins their training or development; you are straight in there with some disparaging or mocking blurb, often dressed up or disguised as humour or “just asking” but only ever thinly so.

You political commentary, even more so.

You do not appear to be coming to ask or inquire, to learn and expand. You seem only interested in coming to expound some “truth” that you have established in your mind before you even begin typing.
Your opening “question” only there to provide you the chance to express that revelation.

This is not to say that some of your thoughts and ideas are not intriguing or worth discussing. Many are. It’s just that you are not debating and discussing, merely trying to drown out contrary opinion or argument with hyperbole.




Loos3-tools

  • Guest
Hey I tried to answer your question seriously. Now you’re saying it was just weak rhetoric disguised as a question?

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
Now you’re saying it was just weak rhetoric disguised as a question?

Is it?

abarro81

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
Now you’re saying it was just weak rhetoric disguised as a question?

I'm  afraid I'd agree that this does basically sum up a large amount of your posts under your current pseudonym!

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal