[teestub]

Seen a lot of ‘climbing influencers’ pedalling collagen supplements recently, it’s also popped up on a couple of thread, and it has got me thinking it deserved its own for reference.

In my very limited understanding of how the body works: you eat protein, it gets broken down into its constituent amino acids, then your body uses them for what it needs. As such there’s no advantage to eating collagen or collagen supplements over any complete protein source.

Can anyone add any knowledge to this?

[Coops_13]

I think you're right that it probably has minimal benefit over the complete protein source. There is a 'questionable' paper on Horst's sales website which claims a spike in collagen synthesis 30 - 60mins after taking a combined collagen/vit c dosage.

From an anecdotal perspective, I've used it for a while with no clear results. I'm using it more religiously now due to my finger injury and I've also splashed out on this snake oil product that I take every day: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FQJZJLU/ref=sspa_dk_detail_5?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B00FQJZJLU&pd_rd_w=XglIX&pf_rd_p=cbc856ed-1371-4f23-b89d-d3fb30edf66d&pd_rd_wg=4aqsL&pf_rd_r=0NQA36T44ECAEPF0RKM1&pd_rd_r=15e2fb59-7bdb-421e-ab96-3fd2d6da99e4&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExSzNQQURRTE9aMk5HJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwOTU5ODQxTzQ2Q1M3MFVSTFpCJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3OTYyNDAxRzJTNjlDSzI3NjlHJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

If it helps 0.5% then I'll be happy :D

[Oldmanmatt]

Seen a lot of ‘climbing influencers’ pedalling collagen supplements recently, it’s also popped up on a couple of thread, and it has got me thinking it deserved its own for reference.

In my very limited understanding of how the body works: you eat protein, it gets broken down into its constituent amino acids, then your body uses them for what it needs. As such there’s no advantage to eating collagen or collagen supplements over any complete protein source.

Can anyone add any knowledge to this?

Jelly Babies.
Haribo.
They taste better.

What more is there to say?

Oh yeah.

Bacon.

(There ya go, whole protein).

[abarro81]

Think it might just be the amino profile/spectrum and having the "right" aminos floating around in high concentration at the relevant moment... but I may be wrong on that!

[SA Chris]

If you have an indication of, or family history of, Dupuytren's I'd steer well clear too.

[turnipturned]

If you have an indication of, or family history of, Dupuytren's I'd steer well clear too.

Why?

[SA Chris]

Can make it worse, Collagen is what causes the bumps and cords to form.

Mine definitely got worse rapidly while I was taking MSG / Chondroitin Supplements, but slowed down as soon as I stopped.

[teestub]

If you have an indication of, or family history of, Dupuytren's I'd steer well clear too.

Are you thinking of Chondritin, which may adversely impact Dupuytens? Not seen anything about collagen

[turnipturned]

Can make it worse, Collagen is what causes the bumps and cords to form.

Mine definitely got worse rapidly while I was taking MSG / Chondroitin Supplements, but slowed down as soon as I stopped.

Interesting, I was taking it daily with orange juicy after I did a grade 2/3 shoulder separation. Haven’t noticed my Dupuytren getting any worse.

Funnily enough, I notice I still had halve a bag left in the cub board, so started taking it again..... maybe I stop 

[SA Chris]

I meant Glucosaminne Sulphate not MSG, obv, sorry

[SA Chris]

If you have an indication of, or family history of, Dupuytren's I'd steer well clear too.

Are you thinking of Chondritin, which may adversely impact Dupuytens? Not seen anything about collagen

I'm no expert, bit if the cords are made of collagen, surely having an excess of it in your blood is a bad idea?

[Yossarian]

I was given some MyProtein collagen the other day. It is spectacularly disgusting - almost comically so. It's supposed to be grape flavour, but it actually tastes like the non-specific smell of cheap bubblegum, without the fruitiness. I kind of like it, purely on the basis that supplementation this disgusting has got to be weapons-grade and if I can hold it down it won't be long before I rip the Beastmaker in half...

[Coops_13]

I meant Glucosaminne Sulphate not MSG, obv, sorry

You may have meant MSM - Joint pills often have Glucosamine, MSM and Chondrotin in them

[mrjonathanr]

Think it might just be the amino profile/spectrum and having the "right" aminos floating around in high concentration at the relevant moment... but I may be wrong on that!

Think it is meant to be the concentration of proline and glycine surrounding the connective tissue as they are used thus infusing them when they are stimulated to synthesise more collagen. Leucine is also key for signalling protein synthesis but that’s generally available in protein sources.


At the end of the day there is a lot of poorly understood science going on here, myself included, but it is cheaper than going to the physio, I figure it has to be worth a punt.

[erm, sam]

DMC talks about collagen with ref to science at the end, 17mins ish, of this:

[teestub]

The study that D Mac references is the one that’s cropped up before
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5183725/
Collagen is only compared to a maltodextrin placebo rather than another protein source, so doesn’t provide any comparison, but it does have this nugget in from mouse studies

Mouse studies that used 14C-labeled gelatin hydrolysate (33) further demonstrated that, although tracer from proline could be incorporated into skin collagen at the same rate as tracer from gelatin, tracer from the gelatin was incorporated into the collagen of cartilage and muscle twice as much as tracer from proline (33). These data suggest that musculoskeletal collagen synthesis is greater in response to gelatin than to individual amino acids.

[tomtom]

Gravy wins again then?

[SA Chris]

Wine gums FTW!

[Bradders]

Can make it worse, Collagen is what causes the bumps and cords to form.

Mine definitely got worse rapidly while I was taking MSG / Chondroitin Supplements, but slowed down as soon as I stopped.

Interesting, I was taking it daily with orange juicy after I did a grade 2/3 shoulder separation. Haven’t noticed my Dupuytren getting any worse.

Funnily enough, I notice I still had halve a bag left in the cub board, so started taking it again..... maybe I stop 

Yeah interesting. I tried taking some last year after a minor finger tweak (after seeing D Mac and Tom Herbert talking about it on their social media), and subsequently developed a small lump in my palm that could have been the start of dupuytrens, or was maybe just scar tissue.

Hard to know, but I think it's reduced in size since I stopped taking the collagen.

[SA Chris]

Sadly probably DC. They start as lumps and at first it's very noticeable when it grows, but then you seem to desensitise to it and your hand seems to adapt around it and it feels like it gets smaller as a result, but it's probably still there.

I had a second one come on quickly a couple of years ago (had one on pinkie for ages, second one now on ring finger), and was very bothersome at first, but hardly notice it now, except when pulling on bucket sized holds on steeper walls and on the occasion when I grab a knob hold "bottle" style.

[duncan]

The study that D Mac references is the one that’s cropped up before
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5183725/
Collagen is only compared to a maltodextrin placebo rather than another protein source, so doesn’t provide any comparison, but it does have this nugget in from mouse studies

Mouse studies that used 14C-labeled gelatin hydrolysate (33) further demonstrated that, although tracer from proline could be incorporated into skin collagen at the same rate as tracer from gelatin, tracer from the gelatin was incorporated into the collagen of cartilage and muscle twice as much as tracer from proline (33). These data suggest that musculoskeletal collagen synthesis is greater in response to gelatin than to individual amino acids.

I try hard not to be cynical about nutritional research but then read studies like this where n=8 and the controls have fasted and lose the will to continue.

More generally, is there any evidence that collagen synthesis is a limiting factor in soft-tissue healing? Or that more is actually better? Collagen synthesis is one part of the repair process, it might be that remodelling the new collagen is the pinch point for example (it’s a much longer duration phase of healing).

As above, there is a theoretically plausible mechanism and anecdotal reports of association between Dupuytren’s and Glucosamine / Chondroitin sulphate. I’m not aware of anything in relation to collagen supplements but they are relatively recent development/fashion.

[teestub]

I try hard not to be cynical about nutritional research but then read studies like this where n=8 and the controls have fasted and lose the will to continue.

This, totally. Palmstrong also pointed out to me that from the graphs (Figure 4), the placebo had a similar effect in increasing the strength of the ligament as the higher dose of collagen. As such their findings don’t really seem to support their conclusions or the widespread recommendation for collagen supplementation which seems to have stemmed from this one paper.

Also interesting to note that supplement companies generally don’t list the source of their collagen supplements, most likely sources seem to be boiled animal bones or fish skin. I find it quite interesting how people in general seem to be less bothered about what they are putting in their body when it’s a ‘supplement’. I remember reading that one of the main sources of BCAA was hair 🤢

[tomtom]

Sadly probably DC. They start as lumps and at first it's very noticeable when it grows, but then you seem to desensitise to it and your hand seems to adapt around it and it feels like it gets smaller as a result, but it's probably still there.

I had a second one come on quickly a couple of years ago (had one on pinkie for ages, second one now on ring finger), and was very bothersome at first, but hardly notice it now, except when pulling on bucket sized holds on steeper walls and on the occasion when I grab a knob hold "bottle" style.

I've had one on my RH form - be painful and now its nearly disappeared (can still feel it if I prod hard enough)...

Then about 2 years ago one appeared on my LH (Pinky or ring) straight after I started doing a few sessions of max hangs on small edges. I stopped doing that exercise - and its stabilised but still there...

[AMorris]

I tried collagen supplementation after annihilating my middle A2 in sept, as a result of watching DMac's video, a bit of reading, and basically just deciding that I will do anything I can to get back to health as quickly as possible. However after seeing the mad price of some of the hydrolysed collagen supplements I decided to make my own by making a dense orange flavoured jelly using beef gelatine powder and citric acid (probably not necessary since I used orange juice) and freezing it in blocks. I can't honestly say I saw results beyond what I could attribute to normal healing. But honestly, it was pretty cheap to do (5 quid of materials made around 2 months of cubes), so it could only slightly work and still be worth trying.

For anyone looking to do this, here is some jelly beta I learned:
- beef gelatine is rank stuff, so flavour strongly with orange juice unless you are a fan of Boeuf à l'orange 
- flavouring with orange juice will mean adding vit C is obv pointless, since you barely need any. I have about 100g of ascorbic acid that I only needed about 1g of over both batches.
- my first batch I dissolved and mixed poorly, meaning there was a very dense "skin" of jelly at the bottom of each block, making it extremely hard to chew even when thawed

Hope this helps anyone interested in trying it on the cheap.

[Johnny Brown]

This appears to be a shit recipe for Haribo which is not rank at all. And no, I'm not sponsored by them, though open to offers.

[AMorris]

This appears to be a shit recipe for Haribo which is not rank at all. And no, I'm not sponsored by them, though open to offers.

Yeah it basically is, just much cheaper and significantly more boring to eat! Was an enjoyable, if pungent, afternoon

[abarro81]

Why not just get some collagen from myprotein or similar? it's only a bit more pricey than whey. Is the other stuff any different?
I've used the MP stuff.. haven't had any pulley tweaks since! Magic. Or it may be because my chronically inflamed PIP and stretchy volar plate mean I can never pull hard enough on small holds to put my pulleys at risk. I'm happy to overlook this and spout on insta about how great this stuff is for an appropriate fee if anyone selling this stuff (including Haribo) is interested

[teestub]

Alex, as per my previous post, I couldn’t find any details on the MP site as to the source of their collagen, is there anything on the packaging that sheds light on it? Anything suspiciously cheap that has to be sourced from animal products seems a bit sketchy!

[abarro81]

Nope, doesn't say anything (other than not suitable for vegetarians)... never fear though, it does claim to be gluten free so it must be good for you

[mrjonathanr]

Alex, as per my previous post, I couldn’t find any details on the MP site as to the source of their collagen, is there anything on the packaging that sheds light on it? Anything suspiciously cheap that has to be sourced from animal products seems a bit sketchy!

You want type 1 collagen mostly, unless you are really after shiny hair/nails/youthful skin etc. SoI asked them. It is primarily type 1, some 3, sourced from beef. Amino profile:

Amino Acid /  weight / % / mol %
Hydroxyproline 12,2 10,3
Aspartic acid 6,0 5,0
Serine 3,1 3,3
Glutamic acid 10,3 7,7
Glycine 21,0 31,1
Histidine 1,1 0,8
Arginine 7,3 4,6
Threonine 1,9 1,7
Alanine 8,9 11,1
Proline 12,8 12,3
Tyrosine 1,0 0,6
Hydroxylysine 1,5 1,0
Valine 2,4 2,3
Methionine 0,9 0,7
Lysine 3,5 2,7
Isoleucine 1,5 1,3
Leucine 2,7 2,3
Phenyalanine 2,1 1,4

[JJP]

The principle that tendons get nutrients differently and we should be eating something targeted to this pre session is interesting - is this an established thing?  I usually have a chocolate bar and coffee but do put considerable effort into trying to eat appropriate food for recovery after. 

I find all the different terms and amounts pretty confusing.  What does 15g gelatin equate to in all these collagen supplements etc. 

[mrjonathanr]

= 15g of protein.

The theory is that lacking blood supplies, tendons mostly absorb nutrients during exercise, like a sponge being wrung out and reabsorbing liquid. So post exercise uptake of amino amino acids for collagen building will be negligible, hence the focus on consuming prior.

[rjtrials]

I heard the adage "feed your tendons before exercise and your muscles after" a few years ago and experimented with making jello, different drinks, etc.

I now use the Collagen Hydrolysate from Great Lakes Gelatin.  It mixes easily in water and I use a Emergen-C packet in each drink. 

Historically i have had very bad tweaky fingers which has drastically subsided the last two-ish years with consistent collagen usage.

[Oldmanmatt]

This appears to be a shit recipe for Haribo which is not rank at all. And no, I'm not sponsored by them, though open to offers.

Mmmmmmmmm...

Haribo.


Ok, done with the Haribo jokes.

I didn’t dip into the thread again after the last Haribo gag, until today and I think I had a light bulb moment.

I started taking the Seven Seas joint care capsules (about the size of a Kinder Egg plastic capsule, but not quite as easy to swallow) about four months back.
I was aware that my diet was lacking any trace of oily fish or anything approximating it and really intrigued to see if Vit D might help with mood and general winter blues etc. There is a collagen supplement in that mix.
I have Dupuytrens, in both hands, ring finger, but it’s been calm or even in remission for a couple of years, until I realised it’s sore and enlarged again, around a week ago. I haven’t stepped up my training tempo, particularly, in the hand department. I’ve increased my running and Yomping and I’ve been doing Aerial Silks as a bit of a laugh, but the only real difference that I can think of, that might affect my hands, are the supplements.

[cheque]

I decided to make my own by making a dense orange flavoured jelly using beef gelatine powder and citric acid ... my first batch I dissolved and mixed poorly, meaning there was a very dense "skin" of jelly at the bottom of each block, making it extremely hard to chew even when thawed

most likely sources seem to be boiled animal bones or fish skin

Chuck some beetroot juice and CBD oil into this witches brew and you’ve got a substance that, if you can force it down, will get you a Tindeq score that’s off the charts.

This appears to be a shit recipe for Haribo which is not rank at all. And no, I'm not sponsored by them, though open to offers.

Joking aside, legend has it that JB’s climbing has been fuelled by nothing    but Haribo and meat for decades so everyone should just be listening to him on this.

[honroid]

I have bought some vegan collagen supplement and I'm now taking that alongside my vegan protein blend each morning 30 mins before a Hörst inspired 6 minute stretch and light fingerboard. I am hugely sceptical of the vegan collagen, less sceptical of the vegan blend powder and I reckon a quick two sets of nerve glides, power fingers and hangs can only help to draw blood (and therefore nutrients) to the supportive structures of the hands.

[teestub]

I have bought some vegan collagen supplement

Boiled up plant bones?

[honroid]

    

[duncan]

Just to remind people that, despite what you may have recently read on social media, collagen supplementation has not been shown to improve musculoskeletal pain compared with other forms of protein. The latest systematic review (Khatri et al 2021) claims collagen supplementation helps musculoskeletal pain but, shamefully, they do not say compared to what. In all 5 the studies on pain the comparison group get an inactive placebo (usually sugar). My guess is when collagen is compared with a good quality protein source any effects will disappear.

Claims that changes in collagen synthesis are relevant should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. As per my post up thread, there is no proof this is a relevant factor.

[mrjonathanr]

I think it’s an attractive idea, but the comment that it was as effective as ‘giving a bald man hair to drink’ rather made me think again.

[cofe]

Interesting, thanks. I was reading up on collagen again this morning to see if it might help elbow tendinopathy recovery. To date, I’ve been too tight to buy some of the suspicious-looking powder, though some of the tendon boffins like Keith Baar seem to advocate it’s use for recovery from tendon injuries.

[teestub]

As with Duncan’s post above, I think the Baar studies lacked an appropriate control too.

Post in question for those wondering
https://www.instagram.com/p/CbMvsFrK1lV/?utm_medium=copy_link

Some good skepticism in the comments

[reeve]

Thanks for the update / summary Duncan.

I bought some a couple of years ago when feeling despondent about my elbows and desperately seeking a miracle cure. I couldn't perceive any difference between phases of using it and otherwise. About three weeks ago - with a recurrence of the old golfer's - I gave it another go. Again, no discernable help, especially not compared with the much more important factor of carefully modulating the volume of climbing to match the tendon's capacity with help from a physio (thanks Biscuit). N=1 caveats obvs.

All that being said, I have an unopened pack in the cupboard if you'd like to try it Cofe?

[hongkongstuey]

Not sure if this adds much to what's already been said, but they made me laugh so...

[honroid]

 

I'm not sure if this belongs in the same topic but the two papers discussed here seemed to support, not collagen but creatine..

https://www.powercompanyclimbing.com/blog/breakingbeta/creatine-for-climbers

[cofe]

All that being said, I have an unopened pack in the cupboard if you'd like to try it Cofe?

Sorry Andy, I missed this. Thanks for the offer. I could try and get it off you but I think I’ve decided it’s all a load of bobbins!

[reeve]

All that being said, I have an unopened pack in the cupboard if you'd like to try it Cofe?

Sorry Andy, I missed this. Thanks for the offer. I could try and get it off you but I think I’ve decided it’s all a load of bobbins!

I've never been very good at the hard sell tbf

[duncan]

Thanks to Andy McVittie who pointed out this fascinating paper on tendinopathy repair, measuring collagen turnover using C14 released into the atmosphere during atomic bomb testing. Comforting to know my shoulders and elbows glow slightly, being the right age and with the appropriate injuries! The latter perhaps related to starting climbing after the age of 13: their results depressingly suggest tendons are fully formed by that age.

The results also seem to indicate, in tendinopathic tendons, not more than 50% of tendon material is exchanged over a very long period of time (a range, but call it 10 years to make the arithmetic easy). I’ve dissected an elbow common flexor origin tendon - the 'golfer's elbow' tendon - in an anatomy lab. It’s tiny and I would estimate weights not more than 1g. So we are talking ~0.05g of tendon material exchanged per year. Tendon also includes GAGs and water, so this is an overestimate of collagen turnover. This means the tendinopathic tendon is exchanging in the order of 0.0001g of collagen per day. Even if there are spikes in collagen exchange and my numbers are out by an order of magnitude or two, these data demonstrate the implausibility of amino acid availability as a bottleneck in tendon repair. 

Protein (collagen) supplements are highly unlikely to be helpful in tendinopathy because tendon repair involves miniscule amounts of collagen synthesis.

[duncan]

Results from studies comparing collagen supplements with other forms of protein are now starting to be reported. Unsurprisingly there are no differences in short term connective protein synthesis rates between the two different types of protein. This is a short-term explanatory study - examining a proposed mechanism rather than clinical outcome - with small numbers. Generally however, explanatory studies tend to overestimate effects which are not reflected in what happens with real people with real injuries. I'd be astonished if collagen supplements perform better than adequate controls - a decent diet and the same amount of exercise - in people with tendinopathies for example.

Of course real food will be better for you - and tastier - than any processed supplement including whey.