[T_B]

Peak lime eh. I don’t really understand what you’re saying, but Castellan would be better with all the ironmongery stripped out imo and bumped to E6 as the best of its genre in the Peak. It can be protected by trad gear. But I can see where things are going with the close proximity of bolts nearby.

I’m amazed that Eyes of Fire has resisted the retroers. Maybe those who cleaned up and repeated General Dismissal last summer will be keen.

Or do what they’ve done at Kilnsey and turn it into a sport crag where everyone looks sad.

[northern yob]

replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible

Actually this is probably the crux of the matter. Some years ago, following similar debate I had a go at removing some knackered old fixed gear at Stoney in a route with more than adequate natural pro that had become festooned with tat. I gave up when I realised it wasn't going to come out without damaging the rock. Even chopping some shite threads earned me 'elitist' stick for leaving less for the aspiring mid-grader to go for, and one shit thread turned out to be on some shit squeezed in line to the right despite being within reach etc etc.

The idea that old gear will come out nicely and you can pop a nice stainless peg back in probably is a pipe dream most of the time. So 'replace' probably means retrobolt, and the bolt can't be in the same place. And then if you're putting lower-offs in... this needs an experienced bolter who is far more likely to be of the view it might just be better retroed completely, and isn't likely to want to do half a job.

After attending the North Wales fixed gear debate last night I have become acutely aware of how complicated this whole matter is! I got the general feel that lots of people think it’s ok to put staples in at good trad crags(not shit peak crags). Ultimately nobody has a mandate to stop anything, so people can basically do whatever they like. Sad times indeed. Sorry off topic (at least from peak point of view) It surprises me that the peak area might have a have a more pragmatic approach/view but that seems to be the case. Good luck

[Johnny Brown]

If more traditionally anti-bolters supported the approach (including doing the work!)

I keep saying this but again I think this may be the crux of the problem. I fundamentally don't believe in drilling holes in crags. It's not what the sport is about, for me, which is playing the ball as it lies, as it were - accepting the challenge as it exists. I accept sport climbs exist and have done a fair few. But I'm not about to go placing bolts next to old pegs, even if I can be argued into a corner where I sort-of accept it is the best compromise. I think this is probably the majority position, albeit a poorly articulated harrumph heavily skewed by the grade demographics (although I'm in perhaps unusual position where I also have some expertise in bolt placement).

Whereas Barry the Drill he don't give a fuck, and there are plenty who'll jump straight on for the tick. And like Yob says there is a growing number who just see bolts anywhere as a normal thing.

There are a lot of parallels with nature conservation. You're never going to run out of developers who pop up seeing an opportunity for a quick buck building houses on your botanically-rich meadow. You fight, you win, they move on and look somewhere else. But then another pops up. There's never any 'win' just a constant battle to resist 'progress'.

[Bonjoy]

Peak lime eh. I don’t really understand what you’re saying, but Castellan would be better with all the ironmongery stripped out imo and bumped to E6 as the best of its genre in the Peak. It can be protected by trad gear. But I can see where things are going with the close proximity of bolts nearby.

I agree. I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.
This is the flipside of accepting targeted replacement of pegs. Other pegs should be removed in instances like this where the route is better without.

I’m amazed that Eyes of Fire has resisted the retroers.

I disagree. Most active bolters I've met have due respect for the trad status of strong classic lines with lots of natural placements. There are exceptions obviously, but they know there'd be a huge backlash to bolting something like EOTT.

[Bonjoy]

If more traditionally anti-bolters supported the approach (including doing the work!)

I keep saying this but again I think this may be the crux of the problem. I fundamentally don't believe in drilling holes in crags. It's not what the sport is about, for me, which is playing the ball as it lies, as it were - accepting the challenge as it exists. I accept sport climbs exist and have done a fair few. But I'm not about to go placing bolts next to old pegs, even if I can be argued into a corner where I sort-of accept it is the best compromise. I think this is probably the majority position, albeit a poorly articulated harrumph heavily skewed by the grade demographics (although I'm in perhaps unusual position where I also have some expertise in bolt placement).

Yes, fair point*. Perhaps assistance short of bolting then. There's usually some degree of old gear removal and loose block clearance needs doing.
My general point is that perhaps if there was a dominant consensus middle ground there would be less room for one extreme to make facts on the ground while the other makes hand gestures at meetings.

* I think you personally have a more than fair claim to be doing well beyond 'your bit' for peak climbing/access and can be excused from active duty on this one anyway.

[shark]

I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.

Rope drag is inevitable on the first pitch unless you pulled the ropes up and even then you’d have a lot of rope stretch for the boulder problem second pitch which wouldn’t be nice

[Fiend]

A stronger, more coherent mandate for targeted bolt in place of peg replacement would do a lot to help this approach I think. If more traditionally anti-bolters supported the approach (including doing the work!)I think it would perhaps make it seem less like a route automatically belonged to sport climbers as soon as one of them placed a foot in the door bolt.

  - I like this compromise. Whilst not quite as pure as like-for-like, and also leaving the door open for someone to say "well why not put 4 more bolts in and make it a sport route" , I still think it's a good way to respect the limited amounts of fixed gear on a route and still leave it feeling like a pretty trad experience. In fact in some cases you could cut down a lot of shoddy fixed gear with less bolts (Hell's Wall, I'm looking at you  )

My mate Pylon Kunt did this on Uphill Racer at Uphill Quarry. As part of guide work he abseiled down to check the pegs and found the crucial ones were particularly dodgy (remove by hand style). He resisted calls to fully bolt it as a F6c and also leave it as a fairly terminal E6 6a, put in 3 bolts on the closest logical positions to the ex-pegs. I did it and it makes a fine stiff E3, whilst the crux is essentially a sport scenario, it has some run-outs lower down and some distinct E3 wire-fiddling after the crux. It just worked.

[T_B]

I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.

Rope drag is inevitable on the first pitch unless you pulled the ropes up and even then you’d have a lot of rope stretch for the boulder problem second pitch which wouldn’t be nice

Hmm interesting. I’m normally pretty paranoid but thought the blocks felt reasonably solid.

You could do it in one pitch I guess. Whether you’d get anyone to second is another matter.

[T_B]

Peak lime eh. I don’t really understand what you’re saying, but Castellan would be better with all the ironmongery stripped out imo and bumped to E6 as the best of its genre in the Peak. It can be protected by trad gear. But I can see where things are going with the close proximity of bolts nearby.

I agree. I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.
This is the flipside of accepting targeted replacement of pegs. Other pegs should be removed in instances like this where the route is better without.

I’m amazed that Eyes of Fire has resisted the retroers.

I disagree. Most active bolters I've met have due respect for the trad status of strong classic lines with lots of natural placements. There are exceptions obviously, but they know there'd be a huge backlash to bolting something like EOTT.

Eyes of Fire was retroed in the past then chopped. White Gold was E4 and is now a polished 7a. I’m not so sure there’d be a huge backlash, though I appreciate what went on at Kilnsey with Deja Vu. I have no beef with Verbal Abuse getting retroed but I’d be sad to see Ninth Life go the same way as the nearby E5s.

[Davo]

[/quote]

Eyes of Fire was retroed in the past then chopped. White Gold was E4 and is now a polished 7a. I’m not so sure there’d be a huge backlash, though I appreciate what went on at Kilnsey with Deja Vu. I have no beef with Verbal Abuse getting retroed but I’d be sad to see Ninth Life go the same way as the nearby E5s.
[/quote]

Genuine question here: why not retro ninth life? Have you done it or is it on a list of routes you would like to do?

Personally I think it would be better bolted. I climb at Two Tier a fair amount and don’t think it had been done for quite a while. I would guess that anyone keen for it would need to clean it and chalk it first etc. I like the look of the line and in all honesty I think it would be cool if it was bolted. I understand that others have different opinions here but am curious as to the reasoning. Just for a bit of background I have done a fair amount of trad in the past and I probably will again in the future. I think there are some really clear cases where bolting sucks but not sure ninth life is one of these

Cheers

Dave

[kc]

Ninth Life is not the best example because it does get done, not a lot but enough. Only last year I saw someone brushing it down, Pat Hill I think?

[Davo]

Ninth Life is not the best example because it does get done, not a lot but enough. Only last year I saw someone brushing it down, Pat Hill I think?

Fair play. I didn’t see any chalk on it myself but stand corrected.

[iain]

Ninth Life is not the best example because it does get done, not a lot but enough. Only last year I saw someone brushing it down, Pat Hill I think?

Yeah, it was Pat:

[Hydraulic Man]

If you are going to do Ninth Life you may as well go and do Flight of Icarus as it’s close to Celebration and they share the same belay....I personally feel those routes should be left alone.

People will come along from time to who want to enjoy them in the original form and not just another polished 7b+/7c with someone permanently in situ for weeks on end...

Longer term we have people coming from the walls and quarries who want more challenges and reverse  engineering old trad routes is something I hear mentioned quite frequently.

[Bonjoy]

I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.

Rope drag is inevitable on the first pitch unless you pulled the ropes up and even then you’d have a lot of rope stretch for the boulder problem second pitch which wouldn’t be nice

Hmm interesting. I’m normally pretty paranoid but thought the blocks felt reasonably solid.

You could do it in one pitch I guess. Whether you’d get anyone to second is another matter.

They feel solid, but look structurally weak to me. Two big blocks wedged against each other in a shallow recess. If the first bit of gear failed on the crux of pitch two they'd be subject to a factor two fall. The consequence of them failing would likely be two dead climbers.

[Tony]

There are exceptions obviously, but they know there'd be a huge backlash to bolting something like EOTT.

Interesting, there is a very new bolt placed, it would appear, to make it a bit easier to top rope EOTT.

[Davo]

Ninth Life is not the best example because it does get done, not a lot but enough. Only last year I saw someone brushing it down, Pat Hill I think?

Yeah, it was Pat:

Almost made me psyched to do it. Almost but not quite though without  few bolts!

[Davo]

If you are going to do Ninth Life you may as well go and do Flight of Icarus as it’s close to Celebration and they share the same belay....I personally feel those routes should be left alone.

People will come along from time to who want to enjoy them in the original form and not just another polished 7b+/7c with someone permanently in situ for weeks on end...

Longer term we have people coming from the walls and quarries who want more challenges and reverse  engineering old trad routes is something I hear mentioned quite frequently.

I struggle to see retaining routes like this as trad routes for the odd person who will come along and do them. I have quite a few times looked at Flight of Icarus and wished it was bolted, it would then get done and be clean and chalked. I am sure that some people will just rock up and onsight it but I would guess that most people would need to give these routes a clean first at least. If they were clean and getting done all the time I can see the point in not bolting them but as it is ...

[Davo]

One last point: I think it is important that each route or crag is taken on a case by case basis and there is some nuance in each case. I am not all for either bolts or trad and in fact I  like both. I like to hear other people’s opinions on this stuff

[SA Chris]

PS I've never attended a virtual AM. But I'm minded to show up at this so I can heckle the chair with "You have no authority here Andy Reever!".

Will you also be an animated cat?

Goose creature or nothing.

[Stu Littlefair]

I struggle to see retaining routes like this as trad routes for the odd person who will come along and do them.

They might get climbed less often but they mean more to the ascensionists when they get done. I still have very fond memories of ninth life and that vid took me right back.

So you’re not necessarily increasing the sum of human happiness by bolting these routes.

Plus, some of them are part of our history. Ninth Life in particular has a back story that gets watered down if it’s bolted.

I’m not averse to retrobolting old trad routes, but I don’t find a lack of mileage a persuasive reason.

[Tony]

On the same logic as some of that above
Perhaps we should just chip routes so the distribution of grades match that of routes climbed by the general climbing public. Presumably that would be the most utilitarian approach?

[Davo]

On the same logic as some of that above
Perhaps we should just chip routes so the distribution of grades match that of routes climbed by the general climbing public. Presumably that would be the most utilitarian approach?

I don’t want to be rude but I come on here to try to avoid this level of UKC style argument.

Is it okay with you if we just accept that I hold both trad and sport climbing in high regard and think that both can happily co-exist? Also that there are some fairly nuance reasons why some routes make good trad routes and some are better as sport routes and that this is a difficult decision to make.

If you have some reasons like Stu in the earlier post that you are willing to discuss I am happy to chat

Cheers

Dave

[Davo]

I struggle to see retaining routes like this as trad routes for the odd person who will come along and do them.

They might get climbed less often but they mean more to the ascensionists when they get done. I still have very fond memories of ninth life and that vid took me right back.

So you’re not necessarily increasing the sum of human happiness by bolting these routes.

Plus, some of them are part of our history. Ninth Life in particular has a back story that gets watered down if it’s bolted.

I’m not averse to retrobolting old trad routes, but I don’t find a lack of mileage a persuasive reason.

For Ninth Life I guess the whole history thing with Moffatt is the most compelling argument and I can accept that if we retro something like Ninth Life with that kind of history we might lose something.

[Tony]

Davo, my point was that you are the one that is suggesting that these routes would be better changed with no reasons other than your opinion.

It is for you to justify the suggestion, preferably by researching these routes, their history, and investigate how often they really do (or don't) get done.