[shark]

https://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=4251

[reeve]

Thanks for posting up Simon.

Just a prompt that it's a week on Thursday. Plenty of local news to catch up on: access and hill-walking, plus a proposal to retrobolt some neglected trad routes.

And as a bit of light relief after all that, we've got some evening entertainment to finish off with:

Para-alpinism: the lazy way down!
Not dissimilar from the three Musketeers, where swashbuckling, heroic, chivalrous swordsmen fought for justice (description from Wikipedia), Calum Muskett is a swashbuckling, heroic, chivalrous climber, renowned for his cheese-puns (not what it says on Wikipedia).
Calum is going to speak about para-alpinism: climbing up big alpine faces and flying back down. Expect some aspirational bits of alpine rock and some amusing stories of returning to the ground. It’ll be brie-lliant.

[cofe]

Any chance of a five-minute cap on any ORG stuff, Andy? PLEASE.

[cheque]

 

[Stabbsy]

Out of interest, where is the retrobolting discussion about?

[reeve]

Any chance of a five-minute cap on any ORG stuff, Andy? PLEASE.

Basically, yes!

The recent open meetings on all political / process / organisational change stuff means we can have a lot less of it in the Areas meetings. We have still been asked to ratify some changes with the members but there will be far less emphasis on this. Let's say ten minutes max

[reeve]

Out of interest, where is the retrobolting discussion about?

I'm really keen for a discussion on this issue as it's a good proposal, but I'm a lot less keen to have it on a public forum (no reflection on the posters of UKB obvs) so I won't say any further details here

[cheque]

Let's say ten minutes max

Seven.

[Neil F]

Is the discussion seeking to obtain approval for future retrobolting, or seeking to obtain retrospective approval for retrobolting already undertaken?  Asking for a friend...

I'm really keen for a discussion on this issue as it's a good proposal, but I'm a lot less keen to have it on a public forum...

Oops    Better not answer that then 

[Johnny Brown]

Does a BMC meet not class as a public forum? And online no less?

Strikes me there's a lot more chance of useful discussion on here. On past record, doing it at a BMC meet goes like this:

Jimmy Hat proposes retrobolting Lettuce buttress. He presents his argument - nobody goes there, the routes are badly protected and reliant on fixed gear that is past its best. There could be up to ten good sport routes that the over-fifty Tuesday night crew could have as their new favourite crag for at least a month.

Mike Ant asks if they have asked the permission of the FA. He couldn't be contacted direct but a second hand source says he doesn't climb any more and couldn't care less.

Jimboy asks for a show of hands who has ever climbed at the crag. Only Jimmy Hat raises his hand. Everybody else looks at their toes.

The 'debate' rumbles on for twenty minutes until the chair proposes a vote. Five for, twenty against, twenty abstain.

[T_B]

Brilliant.

My guess is someone who likes getting selfie requests has already fired some in.

Which may or may not be good for climbing in the dale.

[reeve]

Ah, my attempts at being intentionally cryptic so as to avoid a permanent and easily accessible record doesn't seem to be working. I know I might have not helped with this (unintentionally so), but can we just press pause on the speculation?

[Fiend]

I know this is a bit counter-intuitive, but in the case of neglected lime etc routes, does Jimmy Hat ever propose giving the buttresses a thorough scrub, get rid of all plant life, remove any loose rock, replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible, reassess the grades, and do a nice little photoshoot to sell the revamped trad routes (possibly still cheaper than actual full bolting), etc etc, before suggesting retro-bolting??

(I'm theoretically speculating on this from the entirely unbiased perspective of someone who had the Umpire / Police And Thieves buttress on his radar semi-recently (less so when I lived in Glasgow tho) and enjoyed a day out at Drabber Tor last summer, but no doubt there's something I've missed in the concept....)

[Tony]

Who might have thought that a chair being "intentionally cryptic" and stating that a motion would be positive while not actually providing any information regarding that motion would lead to trouble?!

Has Central Office been giving lessons??

[Stabbsy]

I know this is a bit counter-intuitive, but in the case of neglected lime etc routes, does Jimmy Hat ever propose giving the buttresses a thorough scrub, get rid of all plant life, remove any loose rock, replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible, reassess the grades, and do a nice little photoshoot to sell the revamped trad routes (possibly still cheaper than actual full bolting), etc etc, before suggesting retro-bolting??

This. Not sure of the exact order of events, but I think this was what happened at Blue Scar (Left Wing and Central Wall) c. 20 years ago. Lower-offs added, bit of a scrub, didn’t even need a photoshoot, word of mouth was enough and the place was popular - not sport crag popular, but popular for a trad crag with nothing much easier than E3. Most of the routes got multiple ascents apart from maybe some of the E7s.

[reeve]

Stabbsy and Fiend - good generic discussion, like it 

Who might have thought that a chair being "intentionally cryptic" and stating that a motion would be positive while not actually providing any information regarding that motion would lead to trouble?!

Has Central Office been giving lessons??

Tony, I was quite minded to ignore this comment but actually I think it's below the belt so I'm going to address it. I may not have handled this perfectly, but I did what I thought best. Maybe I could have done it differently. Either way, I'm a volunteer and I don't like being publically sniped at. Because I am a volunteer doesn't mean I am above criticism - in fact I would welcome your feedback. But if you'd like to suggest how I could improve I'm sure you can find a way which isn't so snide.

[Tony]

Be open and honest.

[Hydraulic Man]

I know this is a bit counter-intuitive, but in the case of neglected lime etc routes, does Jimmy Hat ever propose giving the buttresses a thorough scrub, get rid of all plant life, remove any loose rock, replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible, reassess the grades, and do a nice little photoshoot to sell the revamped trad routes (possibly still cheaper than actual full bolting), etc etc, before suggesting retro-bolting??

(I'm theoretically speculating on this from the entirely unbiased perspective of someone who had the Umpire / Police And Thieves buttress on his radar semi-recently (less so when I lived in Glasgow tho) and enjoyed a day out at Drabber Tor last summer, but no doubt there's something I've missed in the concept....)

Quality post.

[Johnny Brown]

This is what I omitted to detail in the twenty minute rumble.

Yes, that always gets suggested. In fact, it would typically be the proposed action and I've often added my support to it. But it never seems to happen.

The other bit I skipped over is where we all also agree (sometimes in long-winded print format) that any such retrobolting should be dealt with on a case by case basis and with the input of those who know the crag. These people are typically thin on the ground and when they do pop up often don't offer the opinion the sceptical majority were fishing for.

I would say that the main issue is that in the venn diagram of psyched obscure lime redevelopers the overlap with the rabid bolter new route machine seems to be more or less complete. That's the ethic though, isn't it - we expect a sport route to be a made thing ready for business while spending the previous weekend doing full on rope access with a drill on your route rather negates the point of trad.

I don't claim to have any answers, and when I have chopped bolts it feels like two wrongs rather than a restitution.

[Bonjoy]

I've edited a few posts, removing the location for access reasons. By all means PM me if you object or want to know where is being discussed.
I'll add some thoughts later regards the proposal, when I have a bit more time.

[Bonjoy]

PS I've never attended a virtual AM. But I'm minded to show up at this so I can heckle the chair with "You have no authority here Andy Reever!".

[highrepute]

PS I've never attended a virtual AM. But I'm minded to show up at this so I can heckle the chair with "You have no authority here Andy Reever!".

Will you also be an animated cat?

[Duncan campbell]

An animated Carboniferous fossil would be more appropriate

[Johnny Brown]

replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible

Actually this is probably the crux of the matter. Some years ago, following similar debate I had a go at removing some knackered old fixed gear at Stoney in a route with more than adequate natural pro that had become festooned with tat. I gave up when I realised it wasn't going to come out without damaging the rock. Even chopping some shite threads earned me 'elitist' stick for leaving less for the aspiring mid-grader to go for, and one shit thread turned out to be on some shit squeezed in line to the right despite being within reach etc etc.

The idea that old gear will come out nicely and you can pop a nice stainless peg back in probably is a pipe dream most of the time. So 'replace' probably means retrobolt, and the bolt can't be in the same place. And then if you're putting lower-offs in... this needs an experienced bolter who is far more likely to be of the view it might just be better retroed completely, and isn't likely to want to do half a job.

[Bonjoy]

 
I've tried and failed to do like for like peg replacements on several occasions. The cost and difficulty of sourcing a comprehensive rack of pegs is also fairly prohibitive.
A stronger, more coherent mandate for targeted bolt in place of peg replacement would do a lot to help this approach I think. If more traditionally anti-bolters supported the approach (including doing the work!)I think it would perhaps make it seem less like a route automatically belonged to sport climbers as soon as one of them placed a foot in the door bolt.