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Tindeq Critical Force Test (Read 14956 times)

remus

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Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 14, 2021, 08:24:45 pm
For anyone technically minded, UKBs very own Stu Littlefair has built a tool that lets you do a critical force test with a Tindeq. Code is available here https://github.com/StuartLittlefair/PyTindeq

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#1 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 14, 2021, 08:41:13 pm
Nice one




What’s a critical force test?

remus

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#2 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 14, 2021, 08:57:06 pm
What’s a critical force test?

The idea is that there's some level of force output you can sustain for a long time (think 1hr plus), and broadly speaking this is closely related to how much work your aerobic energy system can sustain. This is an interesting value to know because if you're working above that line then the clock is ticking and you will definitely fall off, but if you're below that line you'll (theoretically) be able to keep chugging away almost indefinitely.


It's a model more commonly used in cycling (also called FTP) where the test setup is fairly straightforward. In climbing the test is typically adapted to use a 7:3 repeaters style protocol because it's more relevant (vs. a continuous hang).

There's some links in Stu's github repo with the details.

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#3 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 14, 2021, 08:59:21 pm
Cheers

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#4 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 01:03:12 pm
What’s a critical force test?

The idea is that there's some level of force output you can sustain for a long time (think 1hr plus), and broadly speaking this is closely related to how much work your aerobic energy system can sustain. This is an interesting value to know because if you're working above that line then the clock is ticking and you will definitely fall off, but if you're below that line you'll (theoretically) be able to keep chugging away almost indefinitely.


It's a model more commonly used in cycling (also called FTP) where the test setup is fairly straightforward. In climbing the test is typically adapted to use a 7:3 repeaters style protocol because it's more relevant (vs. a continuous hang).

There's some links in Stu's github repo with the details.

The name isn't as fear inducing as a FTP test, are you as likely to throw up after a critical force test, suppose your legs will still work after it lol.

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#5 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 01:08:43 pm
It's just as unpleasant as an FTP test, just in a different way

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#6 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 01:21:20 pm
Stu, where did you find any docs on the API for the Tindeq? I had a look at doing something similar last year but couldn't find any info.

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#7 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 01:21:35 pm
It's just as unpleasant as an FTP test, just in a different way
Good effort Stu. I know I'm being a bit lazy here but how's this being used in practice?

I'm pretty familiar with FTP tests having bought 'Training and Racing with a Power Meter' and completely geeked out on it; application in terms of cycling training is pretty straightforward (or perhaps not with the likes of the Sufferfest now suggesting 4DP is better  :worms:) but I can't see how that's the case for climbing.

How you can use it apart from on a rung (with a tindeq or similar built-in) to train whichever energy system you think you need to? Or, is it just being used as a measure of 'upward' progress?

It's just as unpleasant as an FTP test, just in a different way

I've got a Wattbike, I'm sure someone has a YouTube channel worthy of such a sight. Pick your poison, 1H, 20M, ramp? I think there's some kind of legal loophole for 'elite' sport :tumble:.

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#8 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 01:44:53 pm
At the moment in climbing, critical force is really being used as a progress measure, or a tool to decide which training to do.

e.g a "good" critical force level for a route climber might be around 35% of maximum strength. If you were much below this, you should focus on aerobic training.

Using W' as a predictive tool is more of a  :worms:, since the test tends to be less reliable for this measure.

In cycling you would use your FTP to plan your training as well; for example using Coggan's power zones. We don't do this in climbing right now, but perhaps we should?

For example, if you do your aerocap on a fingerboard and use the Crimpd app, it will suggest 40% of your max strength as a suitable load. Really, we should be giving this as a percentage of your critical force.

Worked example:
Billy Big Guns has a max hang of 120kg. His critical force is 20% of this - 24kg
Sally Limpet has a max hang of 80kg. Her critical force is 30% of this - also 24kg.

Really, they should both be doing their aerocap training using the same load, perhaps around 30kg, even though this is only 25% of Billy's max.

The main reason this isn't that much use, is that most climbing training is not as quantifiable as dead hanging, and no-where near as quantifiable as cycling.

Perhaps best practice would be:

1) Measure your CF.
2) Do a few aero sessions on the FB at the "right" intensity to understand how it feels
3) Recreate the same sensations when doing aerocap on the wall

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#9 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 01:46:32 pm
Stu, where did you find any docs on the API for the Tindeq? I had a look at doing something similar last year but couldn't find any info.

I emailed Tindeq and asked. I've documented it in my code as well, so you can look in the tindeq.py files for notes on how it works.

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#10 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 02:36:18 pm
Stu, where did you find any docs on the API for the Tindeq? I had a look at doing something similar last year but couldn't find any info.

I emailed Tindeq and asked. I've documented it in my code as well, so you can look in the tindeq.py files for notes on how it works.

fair enough, cheers  :)

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#11 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 03:25:20 pm
In cycling you would use your FTP to plan your training as well; for example using Coggan's power zones. We don't do this in climbing right now, but perhaps we should?

Yes, and they've got other nice models (I'm sure you know this) which basically track how much recovery you're going to need based on the session you last did overlain with the previous and so on. I'd like to see some of those!

Quote
Perhaps best practice would be:

1) Measure your CF.
2) Do a few aero sessions on the FB at the "right" intensity to understand how it feels
3) Recreate the same sensations when doing aerocap on the wall

Almost like a benchmarked 'perceived effort'? I can see the novelty but struggle to think it'd offer much more than a descriptive scale from "can't feel it, Barrows has his feet on the floor for this" and "forearms feel like lava".

Quote
The main reason this isn't that much use, is that most climbing training is not as quantifiable as dead hanging, and no-where near as quantifiable as cycling.

This is what I was expecting you to say (which is where the comments on the rung came from) and why I mentioned reading around 4DP. The tl;dr is that Billy Big Guns and Sally Limpet probably have vastly different profiles across the various power zones or energy systems and a single measure (FTP or critical force) is insufficient (particularly above threshold)  :worms:.

It's worth noting that Sufferfest need a point of difference from others (of which there are plenty). However, I don't find it hard to imagine wildly different body types having different profiles across the power zones.

PS I'm not trying to piss on your chips, I'm genuinely trying to understand if there is / what is the benefit of this (currently, as it stands).

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#12 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 03:40:53 pm
Quote
Perhaps best practice would be:

1) Measure your CF.
2) Do a few aero sessions on the FB at the "right" intensity to understand how it feels
3) Recreate the same sensations when doing aerocap on the wall

Almost like a benchmarked 'perceived effort'? I can see the novelty but struggle to think it'd offer much more than a descriptive scale from "can't feel it, Barrows has his feet on the floor for this" and "forearms feel like lava".

I think this would be interesting at the very least, and probably useful for most people. Certainly useful for coaches/coachees - it would probably be a lot easier for many to understand what to aim for based on this (i.e. my goal is to feel like that session my coach had me do the other week on the fingerboard) that getting their head around, say,
0. Full ARC. Could do this shit all day
1. Slight pump but pretty chill, could do 20min and keep going another 20 if I'm not bored/need to go home
2. Bit more pump, glad when the 20min timer beeps
3. Bit more pump, glad when the 10min timer beeps
4. On the border of lying to myself that this is still aero cap, it's basically pow because if you told me stop and clip a few extra times I'd fall off.
(there are then more levels to arms like lava, powered out etc above this).. I'd also be interested to know how these fit vs where they "should" be based on %s of CF/CP/FTP that another sport might use. Of course those might not map to a non-cyclic, occluding, forearm based sport like climbing.. but it would be interesting to experiment and see, and might give a guide that someone is always going a bit too hard or too easy? I'd certainly be interested to know how these sensations fit to % of CF for me

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#13 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 03:51:32 pm
I can see where you're coming from and yourself, Stu etc. sure, but the wider republic of Lattice (what I'm meaning by that [rather than as a targeted slur] is those paying for training programmes) I'm far from convinced? It currently seems like another rabbit hole for people to disappear down.

If RPE wasn't sufficient then you'd have people selling "sit on my turbo to get a feel for your power zones". I've never seen that suggested, although I guess there's the backup of HR zones.

but it would be interesting to experiment and see, and might give a guide that someone is always going a bit too hard or too easy?

But what I'm suggesting is that saying a zone is defined by e.g 110% of CF/FTP isn't true across the board so you wouldn't get that information.


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#14 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 04:12:14 pm
RPE works well at the higher end - most people have an instinctive feel for what a 7/10 or 9/10 effort should feel like. I think it's less useful at the bottom of the scale. The thing I see most often in people new to training is an uncertainty about how hard the exercises should feel, especially for aerocap, or confusion about what each exercise actually is training. So I think it would have some application there.

I'm not sure what your point about the 4DP stuff is; you are obviously right that climbers won't have the same performance profile (in this case you'd measure time to failure against load). But is this useful to know? I can't work out if you are advocating for using a more complex approach or not. To me, the fact that climbing is so much less quantifiable about cycling makes me wonder about the merits of more complexity. Or, put another way, if you had that information - what would you do with it?


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#15 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 04:37:04 pm
RPE works well at the higher end - most people have an instinctive feel for what a 7/10 or 9/10 effort should feel like. I think it's less useful at the bottom of the scale. The thing I see most often in people new to training is an uncertainty about how hard the exercises should feel, especially for aerocap, or confusion about what each exercise actually is training. So I think it would have some application there.

If I took a large sample of people and told them the RPE description of Z1 and asked them to sit at what they thought it was, and then took a second group and showed them what Z1, Z2 etc. felt like and then asked them all back several months later, I'm doubtful there'd be much difference in the group's ability to get it correct. This is based on nothing but opinion and the feeling that if it was useful (or exploitable) people would be selling it to road cyclists.

Quote
I'm not sure what your point about the 4DP stuff is; you are obviously right that climbers won't have the same performance profile (in this case you'd measure time to failure against load). But is this useful to know?

My point is that the 'single measure model' is potentially too simple and it won't show the nuance Barrows mentioned. You won't know if they're going too hard or too easy as it may just be they're naturally worse in that zone.

Quote
I can't work out if you are advocating for using a more complex approach or not. To me, the fact that climbing is so much less quantifiable about cycling makes me wonder about the merits of more complexity. Or, put another way, if you had that information - what would you do with it?

It'd be fantastic if a more complex approach existed as coming from climbing to sitting on a turbo, there's beautiful simplicity in just turning up, selecting ERG mode and making sure you hit the numbers, I just can't imagine what that'd look like for climbing (how it'd be measured for a start) etc. so I'm a little torn between being fascinated by such things and seeing it as a very complex way to measure progress, and perhaps add a little clarity on RPE.


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#16 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 05:00:38 pm

If I took a large sample of people and told them the RPE description of Z1 and asked them to sit at what they thought it was, and then took a second group and showed them what Z1, Z2 etc. felt like and then asked them all back several months later, I'm doubtful there'd be much difference in the group's ability to get it correct. This is based on nothing but opinion and the feeling that if it was useful (or exploitable) people would be selling it to road cyclists.

I’m assuming this means you don’t have an HRM for your cycling computer like a large amount of roadies then?!

I’d agree with Stu that at the top end it’s easy enough, but the difference in between Z2 (good) and Z3 (OMG junk what are you doing you’d be better sat on the couch) for example wasn’t that east for me to spot to start with.

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#17 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 05:14:51 pm
No, I do (which I used initially before adding a speed sensor to an old turbo and then finally going a bit Gucci on the Atom) and I don't have a power meter on the bike itself but then again, I'm not racing and generally just want to be having fun. I didn't need to rely on HR zones (above RPE) for my harder rides this season which required getting it right. My main use of a HR monitor is pairing my head unit to my Dad's sensor as he's been told not to exceed 159 as his heart simply can't take it (he peaked at 157 today on the first ride of the year).

I’d agree with Stu that at the top end it’s easy enough, but the difference in between Z2 (good) and Z3 (OMG junk what are you doing you’d be better sat on the couch) for example wasn’t that east for me to spot to start with.

And you think that if someone (/ a coach) showed you in a 1:1 then you'd remember that and take it forward reliably? You may, and that's fair enough I just don't share that opinion and it seems like a niche development.

Z1 - Can sing
Z2 - Can talk in complete sentences
Z3 - Can talk but it isn't comfortable
Z4 - Talking is pretty challenging
Z5 - Cannot talk
Z6 - Breathless, ragged breathing
Z7 - Can't even manage a single word

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#18 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 05:27:17 pm
Sorry I thought you were saying an HRM to indicate effort zones wasn’t required as RPE was a good enough measure, but I think I missed your point!

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#19 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 05:33:04 pm
Sorry I thought you were saying an HRM to indicate effort zones wasn’t required as RPE was a good enough measure, but I think I missed your point!

No, my point (or opinion) is that being 'shown' zones in a one off by a coach (or A N Other) at some point has limited value as I'd have little faith in someone recreating that more accurately in several months time when compared with just using RPE.

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#20 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 05:59:39 pm
Well I disagree on that, from my own experience. After some time pissing around on a turbo trainer I'm now pretty confident what zone I'm cycling in based on feel alone, and it turns out to be about right based on heart rate when I get home and look at my phone. I can imagine the same idea being useful in climbing.

Also, I think we are getting sucked into just talking about one potential use case. There are others:

1) Alex and I have the same project - a 45m endurance sufferfest to a V10 crux at the top. Alex's critical force is 40% of his bodyweight, mine is 25%. That's a pretty good indication that I need to focus on aerobic endurance, and Alex is better spending time training strength/power.

2) I've just spent six months following a training plan aimed at getting better aerobic endurance. By the end I'm doing harder circuits and can go for longer doing my foot off campussing. Did the plan work? I do a CFT and find that my W' has gone up, but critical force is unchanged, so I've improved, but not because my aerobic endurance plan worked. Given my 45m endurance project, it's time to change training plans...

Both of these are examples where the model and test can be useful, despite it being over-simplistic.

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#21 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 06:15:19 pm
1) Alex and I have the same project - a 45m endurance sufferfest to a V10 crux at the top

It was all so realistic until you forgot that enduro routes with V10 cruxes at the end are too hard for either of us  :lol:

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#22 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 06:26:21 pm
That’s why we need to train

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#23 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 06:31:09 pm
Well I disagree on that, from my own experience. After some time pissing around on a turbo trainer I'm now pretty confident what zone I'm cycling in based on feel alone, and it turns out to be about right based on heart rate when I get home and look at my phone. I can imagine the same idea being useful in climbing.

Slight tangent but are you sure? Various factors from being outside mean that HR vs. actual effort becomes even more unreliable. I'm guessing you're talking HR zones in this instance (i.e. you're looking at HR data when you get back in, not power data)?

Quote
Also, I think we are getting sucked into just talking about one potential use case. There are others:

Fair enough, those indeed are two examples I hadn't thought of (I did ask). I need to think a bit more on the two but the first I can't help but think what you need to know is a normalised critical power that would get you to the chains, the same way as when Peewee and I were considering crucifying ourselves on the local hills (for some daft, max elevation in a set timeframe challenge) we were trying to work-out which one of them would keep us just below FTP.

I can't help but think that for No. 2 there'd be some other indicators  ;D

It was all so realistic until you forgot that enduro routes with V10 cruxes at the end are too hard for either of us  :lol:

 ;D

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#24 Re: Tindeq Critical Force Test
February 15, 2021, 07:20:47 pm
Slightly off-topic, but where does FTP sit on your 7-zone system?

Z1 - Can sing
Z2 - Can talk in complete sentences
Z3 - Can talk but it isn't comfortable
Z4 - Talking is pretty challenging
Z5 - Cannot talk
Z6 - Breathless, ragged breathing
Z7 - Can't even manage a single word

 

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