[abarro81]

My fingerboard routine about how to get to be 4 kgs weaker than you were 6 months ago will be coming out shortly. I think it should be quite popular - it involves wine, goats cheese and lindor.

I'm interested in using routines like this to rehab injuries, or as active rest, or etc... but this guy strikes me as either disingenuous-in-the-name-of-views or a bit dumb.

[User deactivated.]

Not entirely related to this protocol, but for the purpose of general fingerboard nerding-out, i'm wondering if anyone else has noticed similar to myself regarding increasing performance on the fingerboard. The best way to explain is through an example:

Consider an X% bodyweight hang on a 20mm edge. Assume you can currently do 5 sets of 8 second hangs. I can repeatedly try this load session after session and struggle to increase the hang durations above 8s; however, if I increase the load, I might drop down to 5s hangs but quickly get these back up to 8s over a few sessions, ready to increase the load again. This means I can increase the hang duration for a given load up to around 8s, but rarely beyond that.

If I drop down to a load I can hang for 10-12 seconds, I can steadily increase the load over time within this range, e.g. add 0.5-1kg each session and remain at 10-12s, but if I add too much and drop down to 7-8 seconds, this duration will never go up!

My bro-science theory is something to do with energy systems and ATP (something to do with creatine I think), which apparently depletes in 5-8 seconds, so training below 8s might be training one energy system and training above 8s is training another? Clearly this theory is not journal ready yet.

[AMorris]

So everyone on social media is losing their shit over this video. I'm baffled though. 4 months ago Emil posted a video of his benchmarks, at what he claims was the heaviest he's been (82kg) where he hangs middle slot one armed for 7s. ( @12min 20s) A month ago he hangs 200% of his BW on a 20mm edge at 76kg.

In his Q&A to this video he says he weighed 4kg more at 82kg than he did doing this program, meaning for a 7s one arm hang he now effectively requires 4kg of assistance?

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, after a month of twice a day finger training he's basically not as strong as he was 4 months ago...

yeah agreed, the full story is not in that video by the looks of it. But then again, given the claimed 2600% improvement it was unlikely to be! Would expect some improvement in him, but not quite that much.

However, I don't fully follow your logic here, these are what I understand are our data:
1) 4 months ago he hung the middle slot for 7s @82kg.
2) ~3 months later he is ~4kg lighter and is not really able to hang the slot any more (it might be assumed this is from lack of training on this kind of hang).
3) after 1 month of doing the light fingerboarding routine he hangs it for 14s at presumably the same weight (~78kg).

I don't think we can conclude that he is weaker, given the only observation we have here is him doubling his time on the same hold at -4kg weight. We may say that he is stronger than when he started the routine. Why this is is up for debate, however. Looking at these data, I would suggest that he was probably not at all conditioned for one arm hangs on the slot when datum 2 was collected, and roughly equally recruited/conditioned* when data 1 and 3 were collected (though he claims he has not trained this in a "very long time", so it is not clear how).

Finally, I don't think we can use his 2 arm hang results to conclude anything here really, since bilateral deficit appears to be so variable from person to person.

Looking at the data, I suspect he has just reconditioned himself to hangs.

* this is a fairly arbitrary claim, based on a notion that 7s at 82kg and 14s at 78kg are roughly equivalent. This would fit with my personal observations.

[Anti]

I think my frustration is that the portrayal in this video is that he goes from not very strong to very strong in a month of doing not very much strength work. Now there are vast swathes of people who've donned robes and joined some sort of cult infiltrating everywhere I read!

If you plotted his benchmarks across a year it would basically look like any completely predictable undulating line, with peaks and troughs as training and resting cycles go. Judging by how he naturally seems to ebb and flow in and out of strength, I'd strawman that this might have happened whether he did any hangboarding or not.

As said though, if, like his brother, you're dealing with recovering from a tendon issue then this is a great protocol. It's not gonna make punters like me with healthy fingers able to one arm the 25mm edge though.

Edit: Just thought I'd add that I really like Emil and his vids, think he comes across as a good guy with strong sends and I enjoy his personality. I'd imagine this is just poor analytical thinking, caught up in a bit of his high five bubble from his friends without really placing it in the bigger picture.

[AMorris]

I think my frustration is that the portrayal in this video is that he goes from not very strong to very strong in a month of doing not very much strength work. Now there are vast swathes of people who've donned robes and joined some sort of cult infiltrating everywhere I read!

If you plotted his benchmarks across a year it would basically look like any completely predictable undulating line, with peaks and troughs as training and resting cycles go. Judging by how he naturally seems to ebb and flow in and out of strength, I'd strawman that this might have happened whether he did any hangboarding or not.

As said though, if, like his brother, you're dealing with recovering from a tendon issue then this is a great protocol. It's not gonna make punters like me with healthy fingers able to one arm the 25mm edge though.

Edit: Just thought I'd add that I really like Emil and his vids, think he comes across as a good guy with strong sends and I enjoy his personality. I'd imagine this is just poor analytical thinking, caught up in a bit of his high five bubble from his friends without really placing it in the bigger picture.

Yeah I totally get that, it is not telling the whole story. Though it seems as though it was made as more of an n=1 than a well rounded and reliable test of the claims set out in the paper. If he feels like it has done something to his fingers above and beyond the predicted level of performance variation you allude to, then I see no reason not to believe him really. I may, however, question his ideas on why he has seen such an improvement, but as far as I can see he has not stated his reasoning on this.

My criticism of it is that he says at the end not to try this at home (perplexingly) but structures the entire video as an instructional on how to carry it out, as well as reporting personal results which would be extremely tantalising for the viewer to try and replicate. He also states in the info "Please note that you don't need a specific board for the program, a simple doorframe sufficed for Felix for a while!", and posts the entire protocol, which indicates that he does intend it to be, in part, instructional. These things seem to be at odds with each other.

Agree with this probably being partially motivated by mutual back slapping from his peers. It has sparked a discussion though, which is great, and more than most other climbing youtubers are capable of beyond "clickbait shit, avoid".

[Bradders]

Well if this isn't clickbait I don't know what is! Classic PR strategy really; no such thing as bad publicity.

[AMorris]

Well if this isn't clickbait I don't know what is! Classic PR strategy really; no such thing as bad publicity.

Oh I'm not sure about that, a video called "Hangboard Training 2 Times Per Day For 30 Days" with a thumbnail of him hangboarding hardly comes across as clickbait to me. It seems a fairly appropriate title considering the content. Perhaps I am just used to Midtbo style clickbait like "HARDEST MOVE IN CLIMBING" when it is "just" 1-5-9 

Though I do find him a bit annoying at times, I quite like his videos. He is a lot less obnoxious than 90% of the "content creators" out there.

[tomtom]

This may have been posted before - but found this redit thread about this...

https://www.reddit.com/r/climbharder/comments/lhacnu/clearing_up_confusion_on_emils_new_twice_a_day/

[webbo]

That’s the same as Sasquatch posted on page 3.

[tomtom]

That’s the same as Sasquatch posted on page 3.

Taa. Wasn’t sure. Thanks and sorry.

[Duma]

Copying a reply from the reddit thread as I feel like it's similar to my thoughts:

Hey! Hope this gets seen--

I feel like this is missing the mark, in terms of why this video is so appealing.

Why this video was so prolific, and something thats been glossed over:

--There are so many wasted windows of opportunity to effect the tendons. Would it make sense to do very light loading, say 20%, for 10 min, every window you're not climbing or training (even / especially rest days), JUST for added recovery and tendon health / strength? (adjusting rep loading duration for intended stiffness)--

A session that's short enough (including warm up etc) to get added in before work/during lunch/before bed without compromising other sessions or increasing risk of injury (as Emils session may do) would be a boon to lots of us surely, even though the long term benefits aren't realistically likely to be comparable to the vid.

[abarro81]

If low intensity frequent work makes your fingers strong and stable how come I did all those active rest days aero caping  and still got weak and injured? 
(Flippant/rhetorical question in case that didn't come across)

[Fultonius]

If low intensity frequent work makes your fingers strong and stable how come I did all those active rest days aero caping  and still got weak and injured? 
(Flippant/rhetorical question in case that didn't come across)

Maybe because you spend an hour aerocapping, not 10 mins? Maybe all that aerocapping stiffened your tendons, causing them to tear next time you applied a decent load?  Just sayin'....

[shark]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0719-x

I’ve got round to (skim) reading the original study that sparked this all off and it’s been educational - ie differentiating between tendon and ligament(sinew) and why stiffness in one is potentially desirable but not the other. The conclusions provide a practical steer for prehab or rehab and are:

Recommendations for Training to Improve Tendon Health and Performance

From the background provided above, a series of recommendations can be developed to maximize performance, decrease the risk of tendon/ligament injury, and/or accelerate return to play.

Consider incorporating a connective tissue health session into training. This type of session would involve <10 min of activity targeted to a tendon/ligament that is prone to injury. For example, runners would do a session to target the hamstrings and patellar and Achilles tendons, whereas baseball players would target the throwing arm. These exercises could be performed with a light weight and using a limited range of motion if necessary. The connective tissue health session should be performed either 6 h before or after any other training.

Following injury, athletes should begin training as soon as possible. Training can consist of simple range-of-motion and limited weight supported exercises because the amplitude of the load is not important for stimulating collagen production [25]. The training should again consist of <10 min of activity followed by 6 h of rest. Reasonably, this means that the athlete will train for three short periods each day.

Consume leucine-rich protein as part of training. Beyond the direct effects this will have on muscle [47], tendons will also benefit from the added muscle mass and strength and possibly a greater mTORC1 activation [15].

Glucose uptake into tendons increases during exercise [48]. However, because blood flow to inactive tendons is limited, nutrient delivery to tendons following exercise is believed to be relatively low. This suggests that any nutritional intervention that is designed to directly target a specific tendon/ligament needs to be in place prior to exercise.

Thirty to sixty minutes before training, athletes should be encouraged to consume 15 g of gelatin in either a liquid or gel form [46]. The exact amount of gelatin and whether this will vary with body weight is currently being determined.

[JJP]

You may have already listened to it Shark but Eric Horst did a series of podcasts on "sinew" training, rehab, etc around the time he was starting his physivantage company.  From memory main gist of topics covered seemed to be around tendon stiffness/ health and tendon nutrition including the need for the nutrition to be before the exercise.  Haven`t looked back but that could have been one of the papers he goes over as themes sound similar.   

[mrjonathanr]

It is. It is all covered by Tom Herbert in the link I posted, 4th post in the thread ^

[shark]

It is. It is all covered by Tom Herbert in the link I posted, 4th post in the thread ^

I’ll check those too. I’m hoping it will vindicate my chain eating of jelly babies at the crag!

[Oldmanmatt]

It is. It is all covered by Tom Herbert in the link I posted, 4th post in the thread ^

I’ll check those too. I’m hoping it will vindicate my chain eating of jelly babies at the crag!

You are Tom Baker/Dr Who and  claim my £5...

[mrjonathanr]

It is. It is all covered by Tom Herbert in the link I posted, 4th post in the thread ^

I’ll check those too. I’m hoping it will vindicate my chain eating of jelly babies at the crag!

If you listen to his podcasts Shark, you’d find he would thoroughly approve (for the glucose, at least).

[tomtom]

Gravy granules 👍 plenty of gelatine in those. And salt for those cramps :D

[mrjonathanr]

Interesting strategy TT. Standard 170g container of Bisto contains ~2.9g of protein, principally collagen proteins I should think.

So to get your 15g collagen protein you’ll need to make up and consume the contents of 5 containers of Bisto about 45mins before training.

Looking forward to hearing your review!   

[tomtom]

Haha! You checked

My tongue was very firmly n my over salted cheek :D

CBD infused gummie bears then?

[mrjonathanr]

 

[Oldmanmatt]

Haha! You checked

My tongue was very firmly n my over salted cheek :D

CBD infused gummie bears then?

Honestly, I’m down with Shark’s Jelly Babies and a couple kilos of Haribo.
Might get a bit of a pump on in the jaw muscles, but I’m willing to risk it.

Plus it saves talking to people, which is always a bit of a chore; allowing a socially acceptable (if slightly dribbly) grunt instead.

[highrepute]

Not entirely related to this protocol, but for the purpose of general fingerboard nerding-out, i'm wondering if anyone else has noticed similar to myself regarding increasing performance on the fingerboard. The best way to explain is through an example:

Consider an X% bodyweight hang on a 20mm edge. Assume you can currently do 5 sets of 8 second hangs. I can repeatedly try this load session after session and struggle to increase the hang durations above 8s; however, if I increase the load, I might drop down to 5s hangs but quickly get these back up to 8s over a few sessions, ready to increase the load again. This means I can increase the hang duration for a given load up to around 8s, but rarely beyond that.

If I drop down to a load I can hang for 10-12 seconds, I can steadily increase the load over time within this range, e.g. add 0.5-1kg each session and remain at 10-12s, but if I add too much and drop down to 7-8 seconds, this duration will never go up!

My bro-science theory is something to do with energy systems and ATP (something to do with creatine I think), which apparently depletes in 5-8 seconds, so training below 8s might be training one energy system and training above 8s is training another? Clearly this theory is not journal ready yet.

This is great stuff.

I'm afraid I have no useful info to add