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Topic split: training power (Read 5041 times)

shark

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Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 10:19:18 am

T - 40 minutes on the board, stopped early when the first joint on my middle right finger went twang in a very worrying way. However 10 minutes later it was totally fine, close call. 5 x 5 fast pull ups in an effort to get a bit more zip in my movements.

I’ve found this really useful for the throw move on Bens and hoping it will give me more snap for the throw move on the Oak. Been doing it once a week.

I’d suggest that any power training is done fresh ie not after a board session. Makes it hard to fit into a schedule I know. I do it the day after a climbing day and then after a few hours will do a lengthy Max hangs session which seems to work.

Boring video on fast/power pull-ups here:




RobK

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#1 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 10:34:58 am
Thanks Shark. Yeah it felt like something that could be useful to incorporate into the plan. No reason I couldn't do them before the board. As I said previously, I think the strength stuff is something I need to get on top of a bit more. The board is great for body tension/contact strength/shoulder stuff etc. but with not getting outside or to the wall I feel like I'm missing out on a lot of general conditioning I would have been getting passively through that.

tomtom

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#2 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 10:43:14 am
Thanks Shark. Yeah it felt like something that could be useful to incorporate into the plan. No reason I couldn't do them before the board. As I said previously, I think the strength stuff is something I need to get on top of a bit more. The board is great for body tension/contact strength/shoulder stuff etc. but with not getting outside or to the wall I feel like I'm missing out on a lot of general conditioning I would have been getting passively through that.

I thought the video is for people to power train who don't have access to a board? In the first min he pretty much says that climbing on a steep board or campus board is great for power....

But doing some fast pull ups probably won't make things worse :D

RobK

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#3 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 10:54:58 am
I thought the video is for people to power train who don't have access to a board? In the first min he pretty much says that climbing on a steep board or campus board is great for power....

I feel the board is great for a lot of things, including power, but only in certain types of movement. One thing I feel I miss out on in is that deep lock off/pull up type of movement and strength you get on a bar or a campus board. Maybe that's just because I'm not strong enough to do that at 45 degrees and everything is just a throw!

tomtom

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#4 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 10:59:07 am
I thought the video is for people to power train who don't have access to a board? In the first min he pretty much says that climbing on a steep board or campus board is great for power....

I feel the board is great for a lot of things, including power, but only in certain types of movement. One thing I feel I miss out on in is that deep lock off/pull up type of movement and strength you get on a bar or a campus board. Maybe that's just because I'm not strong enough to do that at 45 degrees and everything is just a throw!

Try doing the same moves with bigger footholds... I had the same thing when I first had my board set up...

Started with tiny feet, couldnt do anything. Put on small handholds as feet (bold ons) and moved from throwing, to deadpointing, to nearly doing the moves static.

Now moved to smaller feet and am following the same cycle. Foot up, try and lock arm and throw...

I've progressively got better over the last 9 months.. I assume thats power! Mines a 53 degree - and even going from huge jug to huge jug is a bit of a throw!

Nibile

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#5 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 11:57:38 am
Boring video on fast/power pull-ups here:
And the added weight is total BS. Not only because it's very dangerous if you really do a fast pull up, because it smashes your family jewels (even if you attach it on the back), but also because the percentage is extremely arbitrary. In fact, many studies advise against adding weight for speed training like campusing and the likes, because it messes with your motor patterns and decreases the speed, the recruitment, etc.
Instead of adding weight, the key should be moving faster, and getting higher, wich is the obvious consequence, as anyone who's ever tried fast pull ups surely knows.
Finally, there are tons of more advanced power training routines, like PAP for instance.
I'd sincerely use your time in a better way Shark.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 03:10:29 pm by shark, Reason: Edited at Nibs request »

tomtom

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#6 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 12:17:20 pm
I'd sincerely use your time in a better way Shark.

Another T shirt slogan contender!

(edit :D - of course)

RobK

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#7 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 12:21:13 pm
Instead of adding weight, the key should be moving faster, and getting higher

I'll stick to getting faster as if I get any higher I'll go through the garage roof. My bobble hat provides a bit of protection if I get too over enthusiastic.

nai

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#8 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 12:39:56 pm
good job NIbs has a suspicious mind

Bradders

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#9 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 12:44:58 pm
good job NIbs has a suspicious mind

Never trust someone who wears a woolly hat indoors  ;)

tomtom

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#10 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 12:55:20 pm
good job NIbs has a suspicious mind

Never trust someone who wears a woolly hat indoors  ;)

Oops.. (takes off wooly hat)

Bradders

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#11 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 12:57:45 pm
Knew I'd get someone haha

Will Hunt

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#12 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 01:05:22 pm
I assume the footage of him doing the pull ups had been slowed down to glacial speeds in order to demonstrate correct form, no?

nai

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#13 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 01:06:37 pm
Sounds like RobK needs a helmet for his pullups.

RobK

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#14 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 01:21:50 pm
Sounds like RobK needs a helmet for his pullups.

I half contemplated it.

shark

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#15 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 01:25:26 pm
if you really do a fast pull up, because it smashes your family jewels (even if you attach it on the back),

I’ve been using a divers weight belt so jewels remain intact

Quote
Finally, there are tons of more advanced power training routines, like PAP for instance.
I'd sincerely use your time in a better way Shark.

Im receptive. As Pete pointed out last year I’m lacking power/snap. Googling reveals a small study using PAP methods for pull-ups / campusing. Can you suggest a bar routine - presumably it would start with some Max weight pull-ups followed by fast bodyweight ones?

Liamhutch89

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#16 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 01:38:15 pm
A reasonably quantifiable way for speedwork i've used is hips/bellybutton to bar pullups, as you have to do it explosively to get there.

I aim for a resistance level (bands or additional weight as needed) where I can get 3 reps touching the bar. I never continue to rep out after i've failed to touch even though I could do maybe 5 to 10 more normal pullups.

Campus board might be more specific for climbing but who has a campus board?

spidermonkey09

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#17 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 02:04:44 pm
A reasonably quantifiable way for speedwork i've used is hips/bellybutton to bar pullups, as you have to do it explosively to get there.

I aim for a resistance level (bands or additional weight as needed) where I can get 3 reps touching the bar. I never continue to rep out after i've failed to touch even though I could do maybe 5 to 10 more normal pullups.

Campus board might be more specific for climbing but who has a campus board?

I would be terrified of doing these on a doorframe pullup bar as I think the whole thing could easily come off and crush me! Is there any way to work this which is a bit safer?

Liamhutch89

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#18 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 02:23:43 pm
A reasonably quantifiable way for speedwork i've used is hips/bellybutton to bar pullups, as you have to do it explosively to get there.

I aim for a resistance level (bands or additional weight as needed) where I can get 3 reps touching the bar. I never continue to rep out after i've failed to touch even though I could do maybe 5 to 10 more normal pullups.

Campus board might be more specific for climbing but who has a campus board?

I would be terrified of doing these on a doorframe pullup bar as I think the whole thing could easily come off and crush me! Is there any way to work this which is a bit safer?

I can't think of anything that would be anywhere near specific enough to help pulling power in climbing. If you ever go running, go via a playground with swings???

Speed/power comes pretty quickly in comparison with raw strength though, so it might not be worth worrying about until needed on a specific problem? Training vertical jumps makes me feel generally 'springier'. Aside from dynos, it feels like this can help a bit on those moves where there's not much to pull off but you need to generate power from more of a twitch than anything!

Nibile

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#19 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 02:24:10 pm
Can you suggest a bar routine - presumably it would start with some Max weight pull-ups followed by fast bodyweight ones?
Cheers!
It doesn't have to be the very same excercise, in fact, I'd say that it should better be not. What you suggested is more a kind of contrast training.
When I used PAP I would do heavy deadlifts and then explosive pull ups. Using a trap bar you can force the bar backwards, behind the middle line of your body, and this works the last in a unique way (it also reduces the leverage of the lift in itself but this is another story). But regular deadlifts are fine as well.
You could also simply try double dynos on a pull up bar or campus rung: explode up, touch as high as possible with two hands, fall down. Missing the negative phase of the move is very important in power training, it focuses all the effort on the concentric one.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 02:38:37 pm by Nibile »

gollum

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#20 Re: Topic split: training power
February 08, 2021, 03:22:40 pm
good job NIbs has a suspicious mind


Never trust someone who wears a woolly hat indoors  ;)

I definitely never understood the woolly hat on, shirt off look......especially at the wall

Mike Nolan

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#21 Re: Topic split: training power
February 09, 2021, 09:19:08 am
Edited at Nibs request

I wasn't going to get sucked in to replying to this, but I couldn't stop myself from thanking you for your excellent review!  :lol:

It's hard putting yourself out there on YouTube (unless you're called Dave Mac/Neil Gresham/Tom Randall, no doubt!). This was the first video I made, and I know it's easy to criticise, but please remember that I can read comments on the internet. I've had lots of positive feedback, but unsurprisingly it's comments like 'boring' and 'depressing' that really stick.

Are power pullups at 70% of 1RM the only way to train power? Obviously not.
Are they supported by research? Kind of - it's limited.
Are there other more effective ways to train power? Maybe.
Does it work? Probably. Anecdotally I've seen positive results, and know of others using it successfully with other things and tweaks of course.

Edited at Nibs request

Look up the force-velocity curve if you aren't familiar with it. The key is the intent, not how fast they look. I mentioned this in the video. Higher velocity (appears 'fast') = less load and vice versa. Obviously at 70% of 1RM, you're not going to appear as fast as you would at 30% of 1RM if you give both 'maximum intent'. Adjusting the load and velocity, whilst giving maximum intent will produce different levels of power output.

And the added weight is total BS. Not only because it's very dangerous if you really do a fast pull up, because it smashes your family jewels (even if you attach it on the back), but also because the percentage is extremely arbitrary.

I'm going to ignore your comment about adding weight being dangerous because I don't think it is, and focus on the percentage rationale.

Training at 'max power' has been proposed to more effectively increase power production. Adjusting the load, giving maximum intent and achieving a particular velocity, should mean you produce 'max power'.

This velocity range could be calculated on an individual basis specific to pull ups, but not many people have access to velocity training equipment. In the absence of this equipment, some studies propose an equivalent % of 1RM load range to achieve max power. For example, this study proposes 30%-70% of 1RM for bench press: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27699699/ - quite a wide range!

More info on force-velocity curve and calculating max power here: https://simplifaster.com/articles/resistance-training-strength-continuum/

Unfortunately, there's not much research into this max power load range for pull ups. The only study I'm aware of is here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314187554_Load_Force_and_Power-Velocity_Relationships_in_the_Prone_Pull-Up_Exercise

This study suggests that the loads that produced highest power outputs were around 70% of 1RM. Although, this power value was lower than the theoretical max power value they derived, so there is a suggestion that max power could be achieved at a lower % of 1RM - they don't provide a figure.

With that, 70% seems like a good place to start to me, but that doesn't mean you won't see benefits from also doing them at 60%, 80% or 20%. It depends on what is appropriate for you, and realistically we should probably train the entire force-velocity curve anyway. I've been doing 80% during strength phases, and then 60%-70% closer to peak phases to get more snappy, for example.

In fact, many studies advise against adding weight for speed training like campusing and the likes, because it messes with your motor patterns and decreases the speed, the recruitment, etc.

Do you have any links? I'd be interested to read these studies. :smartass: For every study that suggests something is good, you can probably find one that says the opposite!

Instead of adding weight, the key should be moving faster, and getting higher, wich is the obvious consequence, as anyone who's ever tried fast pull ups surely knows.

Again you've missed the point here. It's not about 'adding weight', 'moving faster' or 'getting higher', it's about targeting the velocity/load that leads to max power. Adding weight comes from targeting a percentage of your 1RM. Some people might need to remove weight to achieve 70%, depending on their 1RM. Moving faster is a result of using a lower load and still trying to move fast.

Finally, there are tons of more advanced power training routines, like PAP for instance.
I'd sincerely use your time in a better way Shark.

Yes, lots of other power training methods out there which are all valid and also effective. I agree that PAP is interesting, but it's by no means a magic bullet either. You could try and combine PAP with power pulls...



« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 04:51:27 pm by shark, Reason: Edits of quotes at Nibs request »

Will Hunt

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#22 Re: Topic split: training power
February 09, 2021, 10:17:57 am
Don't let Nibs get you down, Mike. He obviously a beast, but if it isn't going postal with a hammer on a big tractor tyre he doesn't want to know.

Davo

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#23 Re: Topic split: training power
February 09, 2021, 12:07:36 pm
I watched your vid and I thought it was decent to be fair. That is a pretty harsh review Nibile gave you.

What you suggest seems a reasonable way to try and improve power in the arms and upper body and like you say there are multiple ways to achieve the same goal.

Personally I think my elbows and shoulders would be in bits after 5 sets but that is just me

Dave

Nibile

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#24 Re: Topic split: training power
February 09, 2021, 02:38:04 pm
I wasn't going to get sucked in to replying to this, but I couldn't stop myself from thanking you for your excellent review!  :lol:
Sorry mate, I didn't want to be offensive, despite UKB being the home of the "dire at every level". Sometimes I get carried out a bit, and I reckon your knowledge.
Please take everything in a friendly way, and accept my apologies. It's hard to stick your head out so big props to you for doing that.
I'd happily ask a mod to remove the offensive part of my post, or the entire post.
Thanks for replying in a constructive and informative way, and with a lot of questions for which I have no answer and a lot of notions that I do not understand. I only spoke from years of useless practice and training.
Great attitude.

 

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