[abarro81]

'As much' into bad diet camp I guess means also 'as much' into the ED camp as well which doesn't appear totally healthy. 

I wrote "more" at first but edited it to piss people off less. The point is that her post seems to be about the possibly erroneous nature of dieting as well as EDs, yet on here some people seemed to not like it when the former was brought up in a conversation about the latter. But it's ok if it fits the narrative.

Reading her post it seems she wasn't particularly happy and she doesn't appear to directly link her injury to diet which sort of means that argument isn't particuarly relevant (that word again  ).

"2017 was a successful season, but I was constantly at war with my body. If I wasn’t dieting, or if the number wasn’t going down on the scale I didn’t want ‘it’ enough. I wasn’t doing my job as an athlete (constantly dieting had become the same as going training).
.
At the end of that season, my body told me enough was enough and I got badly injured. "
I'd say that 's close enough to attribution to not need to read between many lines!

'But I also recognise that my strength is what helps me climb hard, my healthy body weight is what allows my cycle to continue as it should, and my decision to eat well is what means I can laugh and be happy with the people around me'

Does anyone really think a regime that means a 19 year old does not have normal menstruel cycle is anything other than pretty wrong?

I couldn't tell from Molly's post whether she was saying her cycle has stopped in 2017, or just making a general point (or doesn't know e.g. shift from oral contraceptive, which seems to have had a chunk of attention over the past couple of years). But in answer to your Q (which is  straw man) it would clearly be indicative of a significant problem, whether brought on by ED or getting training or dieting wrong or a messy combo of all the above.

I just would rather we talked more about how we make a more open and supportative community that would allow people (particularly young people) to understand choices they make and get support if needed.

See Bonjoy's post. This is exactly the point of most of my recent posts advocating being open, honest and laying out choices and potential consequences rather than trying to hide half of the discussion. On here is a lot better than on insta, obviously, since I can get away with actually raising points like these while having a sensible discussion... which is why I find posts about how such discussion is disappointing as, frankly, disappointing

If Molly (not exactly uninformed on these issues I would presume!), who knows her body and has coaches/ contacts to discuss things with, suggests they were then I don't think a default questioning tone is particularly relevant or appropriate,

I didn't see you criticising TB's likely assumptions about other people when the situation was reversed (in fact only my response to him drew criticism). If we defer to people's good judgement then that cuts both ways...

Alex by ‘dieting’ are you strictly referring to calorie restriction, going to bed hungry, etc.?  What’s your view around approaches based more around changing macros, ‘fuelling’, etc., is this coming under the heading of ‘dieting’ for you?

I'm probably conflating both all over the shop in my posts, might depend on the context if you have a specific post you were wondering about? I guess here I'm mostly thinking about it in a weight management context rather than a nutrient timing, macros, keto etc. context, but there's obviously overlap e.g. getting micros and macros wrong probably also impacts on injury risk (cutting weight on a nutrient-dense diet will likely be safer than cutting weight by cutting out all your meat and veg and just eating 3 boost bars, a can of coke and some speed).

For the avoidance of doubt, and in case any kids are reading, my broad view on losing weight is:
Dieting is a useful tool for many people (but not for all), but it probably inhibits gains and carries risks so make it the last tool you bust out and not the first. Those risks include injuries, being unhappy, and getting sucked into an eating disorder. If you're younger then long-term gains are there for the taking so you have more to lose and less to gain from controlling your weight, and certainly from making it a key part of your approach to climbing - bin it off and come back to reconsider it when you're older. If you do diet then don't try to hold the low weight indefinitely because this will probably screw you over. Don't do it too much, or you'll probably inhibit gains and increase injury risk. Be particularly cautious with it if you feel prone to obsession/addiction or struggle with mental health, because having an ED will suck ass. If you do do it, then make a plan and don't get sucked into going lower or for longer than the plan. If you feel yourself getting sucked in then try to talk to people about it, and defer to actual experts over shit people like me write on ukb or insta

[nic mullin]

One thing that I don't think has cropped up here yet and is relevant to that atmosphere in which weight is discussed is that it can be very easy to make remarks about yourself that might be deeply unhelpful to other people. I'm probably what the person in the street might call "medium build" and happy with my weight and my climbing. However, in the past haven't thought twice about who might be listening and how they might feel about it when I've jokingly said insulting things about my own weight and its effect on whether I get up things or not ("I couldn't do <problem xxxxx>, I'm too much of a fat punter" etc.). In the light of this discussion, self-applied comments like this probably come across as crass and gratuitous, but I think they're quite common and a bit of a blind spot. Like the majority of people at the crag/wall, I'm not influential or an authority on climbing, training, diet etc., but I'm part of the background, and as such I probably shouldn't be slowly dripping unhelpful messages about weight and self-image into people's ears. 

[Will Hunt]

For the avoidance of doubt, and in case any kids are reading, my broad view on losing weight is:
Dieting is a useful tool for many people (but not for all), but it probably inhibits gains and carries risks so make it the last tool you bust out and not the first. Those risks include injuries, being unhappy, and getting sucked into an eating disorder. If you're younger then long-term gains are there for the taking so you have more to lose and less to gain from controlling your weight, and certainly from making it a key part of your approach to climbing - bin it off and come back to reconsider it when you're older. If you do diet then don't try to hold the low weight indefinitely because this will probably screw you over. Don't do it too much, or you'll probably inhibit gains and increase injury risk. Be particularly cautious with it if you feel prone to obsession/addiction or struggle with mental health, because having an ED will suck ass. If you do do it, then make a plan and don't get sucked into going lower or for longer than the plan. If you feel yourself getting sucked in decide to lose any weight below a healthy norm then try to talk to people about it and set out the limits and red flags beforehand and make sure that somebody close to you keeps an eye on you, and defer to actual experts over shit people like me write on ukb or insta

This is the only sensible message (adjusted the end bit slightly).

The idea that we can prevent harm from weight loss/eating disorders by having an "open" conversation about all the bad things they can do and outlawing any conversation about the potential rewards (of weight loss, not full-blown very harmful EDs) will not work for the same reasons that preaching abstinence does not promote safe sex or reduce unwanted pregnancies.

[abarro81]

However, in the past haven't thought twice about who might be listening and how they might feel about it when I've jokingly said insulting things about my own weight

This is true for me too, and also for comments I'd make to friends. I should probably try to move away from that.

[SA Chris]

I don't dish out personal abuse about likely-sensitive physical issues, and I'm quite prepared to be called up on it if I do.

Anyone tall than you are fair game though right?

I know I made this comment in jest, but this can easily apply to tall people, or short people. In my teenage years, I hated being the tall skinny clumsy kid, and was always ridiculed by peers and felt humiliated whenever there was a "shirts" vs "skins" game in sports. In the end I started doing some weight train to bulk out, and doing national service helped too.

However, I have female friends who are taller than average (and in some cases than their partners) and they have issues, one to the point that she has (subconsciously) developed a stoop to not appear so tall.

I totally appreciate this can be seen as whataboutery, but it's all part of same spectrum. People can develop complexes about many issues, not just physical, a lot of which they have no control over.

[IanP]

Really not sure this going anywhere but here goes

But it's ok if it fits the narrative.

What narrative is that? MTS posted directly referencing the Light documentary about issues she had around diet , eating, body image and mood.  Whether that is a bad diet, disordered eating or an ED is as you say not completely clear but given the context and fact she talks about mental issues, continuing struggle with bad habits etc it would seem to fit within the realm of disordered eating at least.

I'm trying hard not to be argumentative but if anything it feels that you're trying to fit MTS post/experience to your preferred narative.

Reading her post it seems she wasn't particularly happy and she doesn't appear to directly link her injury to diet which sort of means that argument isn't particuarly relevant (that word again  ).

"2017 was a successful season, but I was constantly at war with my body. If I wasn’t dieting, or if the number wasn’t going down on the scale I didn’t want ‘it’ enough. I wasn’t doing my job as an athlete (constantly dieting had become the same as going training).
.
At the end of that season, my body told me enough was enough and I got badly injured. "
I'd say that 's close enough to attribution to not need to read between many lines!

Full quote is
'At the end of that season, my body told me enough was enough and I got badly injured. Although it sucked, it forced me to realise that the way I was going on wasn’t sustainable - physically and mentally

Don't think it's at all clear that she's claiming definite corrolation between the injury and her diet, it feels much more like a general statement about how she felt mentally and physically. 

'But I also recognise that my strength is what helps me climb hard, my healthy body weight is what allows my cycle to continue as it should, and my decision to eat well is what means I can laugh and be happy with the people around me'

Does anyone really think a regime that means a 19 year old does not have normal menstruel cycle is anything other than pretty wrong?

I couldn't tell from Molly's post whether she was saying her cycle has stopped in 2017, or just making a general point (or doesn't know e.g. shift from oral contraceptive, which seems to have had a chunk of attention over the past couple of years). But in answer to your Q (which is  straw man) it would clearly be indicative of a significant problem, whether brought on by ED or getting training or dieting wrong or a messy combo of all the above.

What kind of general point might Molly be making?  Again you seem to be potentially applying your own narrative to the post, its pretty clear that she feels that since 2017 she has changed her body weight and eating habits in a way that leaves her healthier physically and mentally.

And the question was rhetorical not a straw man, driven by the fact that you had seemingly ignored that part of the post, and indicated that pretty much everyone posting here would obviously agree with it.   

Hopefully you don't feel that it not being able to question a young women on social media about her contraceptive history is part of the lack of  'genuine critical conversation'    (for avoidence of doubt that's sarcastic exaggeration on my part, not a serious point!)

For the avoidance of doubt, and in case any kids are reading, my broad view on losing weight is:
Dieting is a useful tool for many people (but not for all), but it probably inhibits gains and carries risks so make it the last tool you bust out and not the first. Those risks include injuries, being unhappy, and getting sucked into an eating disorder. If you're younger then long-term gains are there for the taking so you have more to lose and less to gain from controlling your weight, and certainly from making it a key part of your approach to climbing - bin it off and come back to reconsider it when you're older. If you do diet then don't try to hold the low weight indefinitely because this will probably screw you over. Don't do it too much, or you'll probably inhibit gains and increase injury risk. Be particularly cautious with it if you feel prone to obsession/addiction or struggle with mental health, because having an ED will suck ass. If you do do it, then make a plan and don't get sucked into going lower or for longer than the plan. If you feel yourself getting sucked in then try to talk to people about it, and defer to actual experts over shit people like me write on ukb or insta

We probably agree on most of that. 

If there's any straw man going around here I would suggest that its the argument that there is some sort of anti-diet attitude that says you're not allowed to discuss the impact of lower weight on climbing performance - I've seen very little if any of that position but a large number of posts arguing against that perceived position.

You pick again on the fact that I describe this discussion as disappointing - I would probably stick by that.  While I think there has been some pretty useful discussions and it's been good mannered and sometimes thoughtful I feel it has been somewhat lacking in discussion of the actual disordered eating/ ED issue, its impacts and what we might do.  Little about danger signs for disordered eating/EDs, how young people are coached, whether coaches have appropriate information about EDs, people's knowledge / understanding of EDs (and disordered eating), how we might make it easier to discuss these issues etc.  None of these things have easy answers but I would have hoped it's the sort of stuff that people might want to discuss.

 

[Loos3-tools]

'As much' into bad diet camp I guess means also 'as much' into the ED camp as well which doesn't appear totally healthy. 

I wrote "more" at first but edited it to piss people off less. The point is that her post seems to be about the possibly erroneous nature of dieting as well as EDs, yet on here some people seemed to not like it when the former was brought up in a conversation about the latter. But it's ok if it fits the narrative.

Reading her post it seems she wasn't particularly happy and she doesn't appear to directly link her injury to diet which sort of means that argument isn't particuarly relevant (that word again  ).

"2017 was a successful season, but I was constantly at war with my body. If I wasn’t dieting, or if the number wasn’t going down on the scale I didn’t want ‘it’ enough. I wasn’t doing my job as an athlete (constantly dieting had become the same as going training).
.
At the end of that season, my body told me enough was enough and I got badly injured. "
I'd say that 's close enough to attribution to not need to read between many lines!

'But I also recognise that my strength is what helps me climb hard, my healthy body weight is what allows my cycle to continue as it should, and my decision to eat well is what means I can laugh and be happy with the people around me'

Does anyone really think a regime that means a 19 year old does not have normal menstruel cycle is anything other than pretty wrong?

I couldn't tell from Molly's post whether she was saying her cycle has stopped in 2017, or just making a general point (or doesn't know e.g. shift from oral contraceptive, which seems to have had a chunk of attention over the past couple of years). But in answer to your Q (which is  straw man) it would clearly be indicative of a significant problem, whether brought on by ED or getting training or dieting wrong or a messy combo of all the above.

I just would rather we talked more about how we make a more open and supportative community that would allow people (particularly young people) to understand choices they make and get support if needed.

See Bonjoy's post. This is exactly the point of most of my recent posts advocating being open, honest and laying out choices and potential consequences rather than trying to hide half of the discussion. On here is a lot better than on insta, obviously, since I can get away with actually raising points like these while having a sensible discussion... which is why I find posts about how such discussion is disappointing as, frankly, disappointing

If Molly (not exactly uninformed on these issues I would presume!), who knows her body and has coaches/ contacts to discuss things with, suggests they were then I don't think a default questioning tone is particularly relevant or appropriate,

I didn't see you criticising TB's likely assumptions about other people when the situation was reversed (in fact only my response to him drew criticism). If we defer to people's good judgement then that cuts both ways...

Alex by ‘dieting’ are you strictly referring to calorie restriction, going to bed hungry, etc.?  What’s your view around approaches based more around changing macros, ‘fuelling’, etc., is this coming under the heading of ‘dieting’ for you?

I'm probably conflating both all over the shop in my posts, might depend on the context if you have a specific post you were wondering about? I guess here I'm mostly thinking about it in a weight management context rather than a nutrient timing, macros, keto etc. context, but there's obviously overlap e.g. getting micros and macros wrong probably also impacts on injury risk (cutting weight on a nutrient-dense diet will likely be safer than cutting weight by cutting out all your meat and veg and just eating 3 boost bars, a can of coke and some speed).

For the avoidance of doubt, and in case any kids are reading, my broad view on losing weight is:
Dieting is a useful tool for many people (but not for all), but it probably inhibits gains and carries risks so make it the last tool you bust out and not the first. Those risks include injuries, being unhappy, and getting sucked into an eating disorder. If you're younger then long-term gains are there for the taking so you have more to lose and less to gain from controlling your weight, and certainly from making it a key part of your approach to climbing - bin it off and come back to reconsider it when you're older. If you do diet then don't try to hold the low weight indefinitely because this will probably screw you over. Don't do it too much, or you'll probably inhibit gains and increase injury risk. Be particularly cautious with it if you feel prone to obsession/addiction or struggle with mental health, because having an ED will suck ass. If you do do it, then make a plan and don't get sucked into going lower or for longer than the plan. If you feel yourself getting sucked in then try to talk to people about it, and defer to actual experts over shit people like me write on ukb or insta

I'm with Barrows on this one, he may be near psychotic in his religious delusions of lattice and energy systems manufactured tedium, but he should be left alone to get on with dieting and body monitoring in the name of performance without the risk of having his balls broken by the 'climbing community'.

[Will Hunt]

'As much' into bad diet camp I guess means also 'as much' into the ED camp as well which doesn't appear totally healthy. 

I wrote "more" at first but edited it to piss people off less. The point is that her post seems to be about the possibly erroneous nature of dieting as well as EDs, yet on here some people seemed to not like it when the former was brought up in a conversation about the latter. But it's ok if it fits the narrative.

Reading her post it seems she wasn't particularly happy and she doesn't appear to directly link her injury to diet which sort of means that argument isn't particuarly relevant (that word again  ).

"2017 was a successful season, but I was constantly at war with my body. If I wasn’t dieting, or if the number wasn’t going down on the scale I didn’t want ‘it’ enough. I wasn’t doing my job as an athlete (constantly dieting had become the same as going training).
.
At the end of that season, my body told me enough was enough and I got badly injured. "
I'd say that 's close enough to attribution to not need to read between many lines!

'But I also recognise that my strength is what helps me climb hard, my healthy body weight is what allows my cycle to continue as it should, and my decision to eat well is what means I can laugh and be happy with the people around me'

Does anyone really think a regime that means a 19 year old does not have normal menstruel cycle is anything other than pretty wrong?

I couldn't tell from Molly's post whether she was saying her cycle has stopped in 2017, or just making a general point (or doesn't know e.g. shift from oral contraceptive, which seems to have had a chunk of attention over the past couple of years). But in answer to your Q (which is  straw man) it would clearly be indicative of a significant problem, whether brought on by ED or getting training or dieting wrong or a messy combo of all the above.

I just would rather we talked more about how we make a more open and supportative community that would allow people (particularly young people) to understand choices they make and get support if needed.

See Bonjoy's post. This is exactly the point of most of my recent posts advocating being open, honest and laying out choices and potential consequences rather than trying to hide half of the discussion. On here is a lot better than on insta, obviously, since I can get away with actually raising points like these while having a sensible discussion... which is why I find posts about how such discussion is disappointing as, frankly, disappointing

If Molly (not exactly uninformed on these issues I would presume!), who knows her body and has coaches/ contacts to discuss things with, suggests they were then I don't think a default questioning tone is particularly relevant or appropriate,

I didn't see you criticising TB's likely assumptions about other people when the situation was reversed (in fact only my response to him drew criticism). If we defer to people's good judgement then that cuts both ways...

Alex by ‘dieting’ are you strictly referring to calorie restriction, going to bed hungry, etc.?  What’s your view around approaches based more around changing macros, ‘fuelling’, etc., is this coming under the heading of ‘dieting’ for you?

I'm probably conflating both all over the shop in my posts, might depend on the context if you have a specific post you were wondering about? I guess here I'm mostly thinking about it in a weight management context rather than a nutrient timing, macros, keto etc. context, but there's obviously overlap e.g. getting micros and macros wrong probably also impacts on injury risk (cutting weight on a nutrient-dense diet will likely be safer than cutting weight by cutting out all your meat and veg and just eating 3 boost bars, a can of coke and some speed).

For the avoidance of doubt, and in case any kids are reading, my broad view on losing weight is:
Dieting is a useful tool for many people (but not for all), but it probably inhibits gains and carries risks so make it the last tool you bust out and not the first. Those risks include injuries, being unhappy, and getting sucked into an eating disorder. If you're younger then long-term gains are there for the taking so you have more to lose and less to gain from controlling your weight, and certainly from making it a key part of your approach to climbing - bin it off and come back to reconsider it when you're older. If you do diet then don't try to hold the low weight indefinitely because this will probably screw you over. Don't do it too much, or you'll probably inhibit gains and increase injury risk. Be particularly cautious with it if you feel prone to obsession/addiction or struggle with mental health, because having an ED will suck ass. If you do do it, then make a plan and don't get sucked into going lower or for longer than the plan. If you feel yourself getting sucked in then try to talk to people about it, and defer to actual experts over shit people like me write on ukb or insta

I'm with Barrows on this one, he may be near psychotic in his religious delusions of lattice and energy systems manufactured tedium, but he should be left alone to get on with dieting and body monitoring in the name of performance without the risk of having his balls broken by the 'climbing community'.

Welcome back, Dan.


On the off-chance you're not Dan then I apologise and welcome anyway.

[abarro81]

What kind of general point might Molly be making?
That sufficient fuelling is a requisite for a fully functioning endocrine system.

Don't think it's at all clear that she's claiming definite corrolation between the injury and her diet
We read that post quite differently.

I've seen very little if any of that position
All my post in this respect have essentially been aimed at you and Jim on here, and insta in general. I don't care what people want to say, so long as it can be interrogated (which it can't on insta, but can on here, until people give each other shit for sounding defensive, or not liking their tone). But you're right, I'm definitely projecting some on my thoughts on the sycophantic bandwagon bullshit of insta culture around both this and everything else into my criticism of your and Jim's posts, and it's not fair to blame you two for all the dumb people on insta!   

While I think there has been some pretty useful discussions and it's been good mannered and sometimes thoughtful I feel it has been somewhat lacking in discussion of the actual disordered eating/ ED issue, its impacts and what we might do.  Little about danger signs for disordered eating/EDs, how young people are coached, whether coaches have appropriate information about EDs, people's knowledge / understanding of EDs (and disordered eating), how we might make it easier to discuss these issues etc.  None of these things have easy answers but I would have hoped it's the sort of stuff that people might want to discuss.
Yeah, all sounds interesting and important - smash on! On coaching I wanted to post something about certain coaches with historically a bad rep but then realised my confidence in defamation laws around hearsay wasn't high enough to post.

Part of the issue may be that I don't feel like we ever really got anywhere with defining where eating disorders begin and things like erroneous dieting, overtraining, or consciously choosing to sacrifice health for performance end...

[webbo]

In order to establish where or when an eating disorder might be with beginning someone. I suspect it would need a mental health professional to spend an hour or two taking a history with that person even then it’s not an exact science.

[Loos3-tools]

https://freedfromed.co.uk/

[spidermonkey09]

As Ian says I get the feeling that this isn't going anywhere and may be time to move it on to the points he raises in his final paragraph, no point going over old ground to excess. (I intended this to only be a paragraph and got on a roll!  )

As a finisher from me, I think in essence I find the prevailing attitude to this issue to be quite laissez faire and detached. I think this is combination of a lot of those posting on here being of a contrarian, data driven and critical thinking bent, which is no bad thing per se. However as I said above I do think this results in quite a significant empathy gap which I know isn't intended, but is definitely my perception.

 I also think that the population here, overwhelmingly male and middle aged, perhaps struggles to fully relate to the issue in the same way as they do to say, depression (see the admirable black Dog thread and club). Eating disorders affect everyone but young women are especially at risk, so perhaps it's natural that there is a gap here, but i do think it's something we need to be aware of. As NaoB wrote above, more female voices on this would be really useful.

I have first hand experience of learning more about EDs when someone close to me suffered from one. I was incredibly ignorant about what they were and even more ignorant about how to help them. I learned, but I wish I'd known more and could have been more useful! Things are a lot better societally now but I do think we have quite a way to go. This forum is quite a high performance bubble in climbing I think and so perhaps sees weight loss for climbing purposes in a different way to others.

That said we all know more about EDs than we did a few days ago so that's progress!

[mrjonathanr]

https://freedfromed.co.uk/

Looks a good resource. Can you add any further context to it? The ‘about’ says they hope to link to 20 services by 2020. Any update - used in Manchester hospital trusts for example? Thanks.

[moose]

Perhaps an inappropriate comparison but I am oddly reminded of this by the arguments of dieting as a precursor to an ED versus it being a useful tool for elite performance [not that I'm judging anyone's positions in this respect.... I just like an excuse for Brasseye links].

https://youtu.be/4xhdPmu2dEA?t=42

[mrjonathanr]

Part of the issue may be that I don't feel like we ever really got anywhere with defining where eating disorders begin and things like erroneous dieting, overtraining, or consciously choosing to sacrifice health for performance end...

I’d argue mental disorders cannot be neatly defined by behaviours. Which is what webbo said. I am sure you could have 2 people present identical behaviours and appearance, one of whom would shortly return to healthy eating and the other was no longer in control. We can’t tie it up that neatly. You could identify some big red flags though.

[shark]

Perhaps an inappropriate comparison but I am oddly reminded of this by the arguments of dieting as a precursor to an ED versus it being a useful tool for elite performance [not that I'm judging anyone's positions in this respect.... I just like an excuse for Brasseye links].

https://youtu.be/4xhdPmu2dEA?t=42

  Alex is definitely safe - his middle class credentials are impeccable

[abarro81]

 
 I'm nothing if not effortlessly middle class

[abarro81]

. You could identify some big red flags though.

What would red flags be for those losing control?

[mrjonathanr]

Well that it is a really good question and I am not qualified to pronounce on what is/isn't a worrying sign. Which is why my post stopped there!

However.. anything that purges is a straight no-no in my mind, like making yourself sick or using laxatives when not constipated.  Obsessional thinking around restricting food consumption and decreasing levels of satisfaction with life generally/self-image would be a worry to me too.

[Loos3-tools]

Driven exercise is purging too

[spidermonkey09]

 Passing thought that this section of the forum is called diet, training and injuries. Perhaps given what we seem to have all acknowledged that training should definitely come before diet in the "toolkit", is this worth a rename?

One of those things which some might roll their eyes at, but imagine how it would look from the perspective of someone who is on a slippery slope.

[Wood FT]

So call it 'training, diet and injuries' ?

[Oldmanmatt]

Passing thought that this section of the forum is called diet, training and injuries. Perhaps given what we seem to have all acknowledged that training should definitely come before diet in the "toolkit", is this worth a rename?

One of those things which some might roll their eyes at, but imagine how it would look from the perspective of someone who is on a slippery slope.

You are conflating “Diet” with “Dieting” and the former is every bit as important as the latter. Keeping your Macros in line and ensuring sufficient calorie and nutritional intake, is both important and sensible.

[spidermonkey09]

So call it 'training, diet and injuries' ?

I dunno, I haven't seen many threads about diet lately anyway. Might be that it doesn't need explicitly mentioning.

OMM I take your point, but it sort of goes back to the earlier discussion, which do you think is the more likely interpretation from someone struggling with their eating?

[Fiend]

"Training, nutrition, and injuries"

Training should come first as it's the main focus. I think nutrition is a more suitable term as it covers what really matters - being optimally nutrient-supplied for climbing prowess (not the same as diet which can be construed as dieting!).