[teestub]

I guess i'm relatively new to climbing (4 or 5 years or so), so I don't know enough about old broccoli diet's, but I do have Instagram and have listened to climbing podcasts. All I see on Instagram are muscle-bound climbers performing incredible feats of strength, topless. I concede this could be equally damaging to some people. For example, in gym circles this imagery leads many people to steroids. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of the top climbers were using PED's  But I certainly don't see unhealthy low weight being promoted for climbing on the internet.

I think there’s a slight false equivalence here: someone being muscle bound does not mean that they do not suffer from disordered eating, in fact someone with a low body fat percentage is likely to be keeping a v close eye on what they eat, and therefore be at risk of slipping into damaging habits (unless of course they are one of Bonjoy’s fortunate friends with a high metabolic rate). As such I don’t think looking at someone on insta and saying ‘they must be healthy they have muscles’ is useful.

Likewise earlier BMI was brought up. This is a fairly useless measure on an individual scale in the general population, and almost completely useless for athletic physiques.

[Davo]

A surprising amount of resistance to the idea that climbing and eating disorders might have some crossover, which surprises me. The connection seems quite obvious to me and has been under the surface of climbing for years. We've all heard rumours about someone or other I'm sure.

Interested in why this is prompting such pushback. There are a lot of comments here that come across as pretty defensive; lots of 'not all men are like that' kind of energy! Is it not enough to raise awareness of the risks that climbing might pose to a healthy relationship with food? If you don't think it applies to you, thats great, but I think you'd have to be blind not to see the potential risk to young climbers, and young female climbers in particular. This piece is very good on that issue.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/growing_pains_-_the_weight_of_womanhood-688324

Strange that you see any resistance to the idea of crossover in the discussion that has taken place. I see lots of acceptance that there is likely to be crossover. The discussion to me centres around how much of an issue it is in climbing. I also don’t read anything particularly defensive - certainly I don’t feel defensive myself. I just disagree on the extent and the idea that climbing has a major problem here.

I think it is (as an earlier poster has mentioned) that it’s important to be able to discuss topics such as this without being accused of putting our heads in the sand. I have a different opinion to you and others but am happy to debate it. I also acknowledge that eating disorders are likely to be an issue for some climbers, most likely those who are young or excel but by no means only those. I just don’t think it is as big an issue as the film made it out to be.

I think you also (in a later post) mention my comment of her projecting her issues. I can’t really see much doubt that she does a whole load of projecting of her own issues with eating and body image all the way through the film and in a few instances I found it quite bizarre the way she described situations.

Dave

[Davo]

[/quote]

Likewise earlier BMI was brought up. This is a fairly useless measure on an individual scale in the general population, and almost completely useless for athletic physiques.
[/quote]

Happy to be corrected here but I thought that the issues with BMI are mainly when interpreting a heavily muscled guy of say 14 stone low body fat and only 5 foot 8. A basic BMI calculation will look like they are  overweight or obese. However when looking at whether someone is underweight  BMI is likely to be a reasonable guide.

[Davo]

Having reflected on the film a few personal thoughts.

Can only speak for myself but body composition is one performance subset of my obsession to be the best climber I can. Other subsets include fingerboarding, blancos, siege tactics etc.

I weigh myself every day to keep a check and get a weekly average. Typically I only very gradually lose or gain weight which is matter of public record on Power Club.

It’s only in the last few years that I’ve got my weight/fat level down seasonally to a level that would I think be unhealthy if I kept it at that level long term rather than to coincide with attempting to redpoint the Oak.

I have a feel for the level that’s unhealthy for me as once I reach or dip below 11 stone I start to feel a bit weird mentally and physically after a few weeks by which stage I’ll almost certainly be burnt out or conditions will have crapped out so happy to start putting weight back on to get back to a sustainable level. Personally I’m comfortable with this approach.

I’ve also had a few weigh ins over the years on the Collegiate body comp machine so have a reasonable handle on where my fat % is which seems to be the most reliable marker on how far you can push personal weight loss.

Also training to get strength gains whilst underweight is going to be compromised so apart from the myriad other issues I think you are shooting yourself in the foot keeping your weight permanently low if the reason is to perform well.

Like I say I can only speak for myself. I’m naturally a chunkier body type and a constant struggle to get or keep my weight where I want it to be at any particular time. Other people have different metabolisms and body types.

Whether my approach is appropriate, unhealthy or fucked up depends on your own view but Im sure it’s not pathological in the way described in the film by the interviewed climbers.

However, if tracking my weight on Power Club or talking about my approach to weight in the way I have above is triggering or part of an insidious community groupthink I’m quite happy to keep such things to myself.

All you describe sounds pretty reasonable to me. I don’t weigh myself anywhere near that often but also keep an eye on my weight and manipulate it through the year. I don’t feel that my attitudes or feelings about weight even come close to pathology and as far as I’m concerned yours don’t either. However I do understand that for some people entering the sport who might have a tendency towards an eating disorder it would be difficult to not take away the idea that if you lose weight and stay light you will climb well.

[teestub]

Happy to be corrected here but I thought that the issues with BMI are mainly when interpreting a heavily muscled guy of say 14 stone low body fat and only 5 foot 8. A basic BMI calculation will look like they are  overweight or obese. However when looking at whether someone is underweight  BMI is likely to be a reasonable guide.

You can see how the same issues that make this extreme case inaccurate filter through BMI measures, with a few KG of additional muscle but a v low body fat percentage bumping someone out of ‘underweight’ into ‘normal’.

This is off topic, as being a particular weight or having a particular body fat percentage does not mean a person does not have an issue with eating, but as Shark has alluded to, IMO body fat percentage is a better measure for sportspeople.

[Will Hunt]

I’m naturally a chunkier body type

I'm intrigued to know what you're characterising as "chunkier" and when the last time you might have been "chunky" was. I ask because you've been playing the game for so long and, as far as I can remember, you've been of a fairly consistent build. Is it possible that you've lost sight of what your normal is if you feel like you're in a constant struggle to keep your weight down?

I have to say that there's some eyebrow-raisers in your post. For the sake of argument, let's say that you had an eating disorder. Is it possible that you've had it for so long that this behaviour has become normalised?

I'm not a professional or mental health specialist in any way. Apologies if those questions are overly intrusive or unwelcome. Your post just intrigued me.

[abarro81]

I would maintain though, that when a thread is started on a topic like this, and a large proportion of the responses carry caveats, that that says something interesting about attitudes to the topic.

or.. it says that the topic of weight in weight-dependent sports is nuanced

a long standing belief that weight loss is a good tactic for hard climbing

You say this like it's definitively untrue or a misconception, but again it's nuanced. Weight loss has pros (immediate performance) and cons (potential health impacts, especially long term; potential mental impact; potential performance impact of those two things in the longer term). Ignoring the fact that climbers are trying to find a balance around this and just saying "weight loss is bad, don't do weight loss kids" is the burying your head in the sand IMO.

[spidermonkey09]

a long standing belief that weight loss is a good the best tactic for hard climbing

The above is a better reflection of my point.

[Fiend]

I’m naturally a chunkier body type

I'm intrigued to know what you're characterising as "chunkier"

I'm more intrigued to know how he can get away with spouting an outright lie like that...

...oh. Maybe in a sports community that is ridden with body dysmorphia, eating disorders, and a lack of balanced perspective.

[Bonjoy]

That certainly was defensive! 

As it happens, I don't disagree with large parts of your post. I certainly didn't mean to be dismissive (I don't think I was!) or imply that you specifically have your head in the sand, although I accept that by paraphrasing I'm making a rod for my own back....

Kneejerk Defensive Disorder, I've been a sufferer of KDD for quite some time now.   
I know you weren't particularly attributing any position to me. Beware of quoting KDD types in rhetoric is all I can say.
FWIW I'm coming at this from the perspective outlined by Barrows earlier. I know of instances of EDs in climbing and assume this to be the tip of an iceberg of unknown proportion and I kind of assumed this was where most other informed posters on here would be coming from. 

[shark]

I’m naturally a chunkier body type

I'm intrigued to know what you're characterising as "chunkier"

I'm more intrigued to know how he can get away with spouting an outright lie like that...

...oh. Maybe in a sports community that is ridden with body dysmorphia, eating disorders, and a lack of balanced perspective.

Reel your neck in. I’m not chunky now but I used to be generally more muscley and not what you’d call lean. At Uni I had the nickname Walrus for a short while.

[Stu Littlefair]

The thing is, for many people, weight loss is the best short term tactic for hard climbing. Climbing is unavoidably a power-to-weight dependent sport.

I thought the film was really useful and important. It should be essential viewing for any young sport climber and their parents.

It didn't offer much in the way of solutions, but then it doesn't have to. What it did demonstrate quite clearly is that - for some - climbing can be a pretty toxic environment. I was struck by Angie Payne's reaction to two male climbers having what I would consider to be a pretty normal and innocuous conversation about their weight and their performance.

It was obvious to me from this segment that what many of us accept as normal can be extremely difficult for some climbers.

What to do about this is the hard question of course. IMO it's unrealistic to expect people not to be weight conscious in a sport like climbing. Pretending that weight isn't a factor in performance is fashionable right now, but as a solution to the problem I think it is likely to fail as it disagrees with the obvious reality, and people can see that.

Setting expectations that people watch their language about the topic in public is an option, but I worry it would drive conversation about the topic behind close doors, which is arguably worse.

The ideal I would like to see is a culture where we were open and frank about the pros and cons of weight loss for climbing performance. I don't think we are far from that now.

But a caveat of that is that if we allow open conversations about weight loss, we need to be aware that some people won't be able to cope like this. As Angie Payne said "I can't just lose 5lbs and then stop". We also need to have a culture where people can admit they have issues around weight without stigma, and feel comfortable asking people to change the subject.

I don't know how we get there, and don't know what to do until we do.

[IanP]

This is a complicated subject and one where I have had close personal contact with a couple of cases of significant eating disorders in young sports women (one a climber, one a runner/cyclist).  I posted when this previously came up on the Angy Eiter thread:
   
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,28449.msg623624.html#msg623624

I've followed this thread, and one on UKC, they both share some similarities and for me do lack a bit of empathy and understanding.   Eating disorders are can be significant mental (and physical) illnesses with complex mutli-faceted causes and I'm sure there isn't a simple correlation between climbing (or other sports) and EDs however that doesn't mean we don't need to be more aware of them and what we can do to help/ 

A fair number of posts here are from people talking about managing their weight without issues - well of course they do , plenty of people drink alcohol without issues or have a bad day without suffering from depression!  I think there is still a significant stigma around EDs and people talking about them more openly without the need for these sort of 'defensive' posts would be more helpful approach I think.  For me there seems to be really different tone to this thread compared to for example the black dog one which do find disappointing (I know they have slightly different context but think the point still stands).

[YorkshireTea]

Basically all media I see focuses on building strength over losing weight, how weight loss is only a short term solution etc etc so it would be easy to see that and think the community is doing a good job of tackling the issue.

From my experience it's usually newer climbers, often those who are overly strong already, coming from a regular gym background who in conversation sound like they have some level of unhealthy attitudes to food and weight. These are the same people who buy way too tight downturned shoes despite most high level climbers and media saying that like under eating that it's a thing from the past (and like losing weight may be applicable in some circumstances).

I think it takes a lot longer for these messages to get down to that level where they may not be a part of the larger climbing community and only get information from other climbers at a similar or slightly higher level.

[Duma]

Kyra Condie has an interesting vid on her IG stories on this atm.

[Davo]

The thing is, for many people, weight loss is the best short term tactic for hard climbing. Climbing is unavoidably a power-to-weight dependent sport.

I thought the film was really useful and important. It should be essential viewing for any young sport climber and their parents.

It didn't offer much in the way of solutions, but then it doesn't have to. What it did demonstrate quite clearly is that - for some - climbing can be a pretty toxic environment. I was struck by Angie Payne's reaction to two male climbers having what I would consider to be a pretty normal and innocuous conversation about their weight and their performance.

It was obvious to me from this segment that what many of us accept as normal can be extremely difficult for some climbers.

What to do about this is the hard question of course. IMO it's unrealistic to expect people not to be weight conscious in a sport like climbing. Pretending that weight isn't a factor in performance is fashionable right now, but as a solution to the problem I think it is likely to fail as it disagrees with the obvious reality, and people can see that.

Setting expectations that people watch their language about the topic in public is an option, but I worry it would drive conversation about the topic behind close doors, which is arguably worse.

The ideal I would like to see is a culture where we were open and frank about the pros and cons of weight loss for climbing performance. I don't think we are far from that now.

But a caveat of that is that if we allow open conversations about weight loss, we need to be aware that some people won't be able to cope like this. As Angie Payne said "I can't just lose 5lbs and then stop". We also need to have a culture where people can admit they have issues around weight without stigma, and feel comfortable asking people to change the subject.

I don't know how we get there, and don't know what to do until we do.

Couldn’t agree more with all of this

[Offwidth]

My take, as someone with long term metabolic issues (thyroid related) who has spent quite a lot of time with high performance climbers is some of the key messaging in this excellent film seems to be being being lost in rigidity of thinking.  The playful, creative and explorative mammal is the ideal to me, with no constantly negative internal voice. I think people should test themselves against that, as addictive problems can extend beyond eating disorders (and metabolisms do differ so body shape should not be the only factor). I think the silence around damaging behaviours needs to end and more climbers need to recognise warning signs so they can help their friends. The Black Dog thread here is a classic exemplar to me.

I'd also caution Will that there is such a thing as empty calories... really shitty sugar packed food and drink that pretty much everyone should avoid in anything more than tiny doses. We are better being aware and open to help, than adding labels to people.

If the tops off 50s calendar happens, for people who still challenge themselves, I compete in fun comps and take on things at my limit despite my paunch. It's joyful to problem solve and achieve and occasionally almost spiritual to flow when focussed on something challenging. I'm delighted the top three super vets at The Unit win beer.

[NaoB]

Climbing attracts people from all walks of life, but a common trait of 'really good' climbers is the ability to try very hard. If you turn that determined focus towards getting light, it's easy to see how you could end up doggedly sticking to a dangerously restrictive eating pattern even when your body is giving out alarm signals that other people would pay attention to.

The issue is, as has been pointed out by others on this thread, that you can't climb as hard if you are too heavy. The trick is to find the balance. Angie Payne and Emily Harrington both still are by anyone's standards slim, in fact they don't look vastly different now than when they were struggling with their ED's in the earlier footage. The difference is that they are healthy now.

In my mind, the answer would be accepting that elite athletes are going to be keen to keep their weight at the right level for performing well, and educating them, especially youngsters, to give them knowledge about nutrition for longevity. Let's face it, we mostly just want to climb as hard as we can - realising that scientifically proven, healthy, nutritious eating habits will help us to achieve that goal far better than simply being stick thin gives us something useful to focus our obsessive personalities on! Obviously, this is for those whose driving force for dieting is to climb better, rather than those who have clinical ED's separate from the sporting sphere (yes, I know there is a lot of overlap).

For what it's worth, I reckon this is just as big an issue for male climbers as female from my experience.

[IanP]

A fair number of posts here are from people talking about managing their weight without issues - well of course they do , plenty of people drink alcohol without issues or have a bad day without suffering from depression!  I think there is still a significant stigma around EDs and people talking about them more openly without the need for these sort of 'defensive' posts would be more helpful approach I think.  For me there seems to be really different tone to this thread compared to for example the black dog one which do find disappointing (I know they have slightly different context but think the point still stands).

Wasn't sure whether to post more on this, but here goes.

Finally got round to watching the documentary this morning - would say I hadn't found time, but in actuality I was probably putting it off somewhat.

I thought it was an excellent documentary, very brave and harrowing at times, for me personally it was also pretty raw having been very close over the last couple of years to a similar situation with my daughter.  Having watched the film, I don't think that ' disappointing '  is quite adequate to describe how I feel about the overall feel of this thread.  I don't want to pick on individual posts but feel there is a lot of defensiveness where I would hope that the first thought that most people would take from the film was some sort of understanding/empathy for the traumatic experiences the people featured had been through. 

A few thoughts:

- An eating disorder is not just following a strict (or even extreme) diet, it is mental illness first and foremost involving obsessive behaviours and intrusive thoughts around food, body image, exercise etc.  It is also not necessarily always associated with being 'ridiculously skinny’ or other stereotypes and can't always be judged from external appearances.
- Of course plenty of climbers (and other athletes) can managed weight and perform to a high standard without developing EDs.  This doesn't diminish the fact the people featured had developed significant EDs and felt that the culture within climbing was not helpful both in dealing with this or allowing them to discuss their problems openly.  Does anyone really believe that there are not many other people in climbing also having problems?  A cursory look around the internet/Instagram should be enough to refute that view.
- Recovery from EDs can be slow and difficult. Angie Payne was quite clear in the film that she was not 'cured', hopefully her recovery will continue and her openness and bravery can help (and for the rest of the people involved in the film).
- I believe EDs still have significant misunderstandings and stigma around them.  Together with the fact that many sufferers internalise feelings of guilt and poor self image they can be very difficult to discuss openly - one of the most important positives that could come out this film and discussions like this is to break down this stigma and increase openess within the climbing community to the issue.

To finish more positively, my daughter is aware I'm posting this and is in a much better place though still very much 'in recovery'.   She's pretty sure the roots of her problems originated prior to taking up climbing but it took her some time to recognise that climbing really wasn't helping.  The below quote is from her instagram at start of this year:

'2020 gave me, despite how shit it was in so many ways, the chance to recover from a restrictive eating disorder after 2 years, and regain my real love for climbing.  I can now look back and see how far I’ve come, I can love my body for what it lets me do regardless of how I think it looks. I eat for enjoyment, fuel, happiness, and can again do this with the people closest to me.

It was hard to recover while still climbing. I felt the pressure to be skinny, I got complimented on my weight loss, I was scared to lose this; but with lockdown in March I realised how wrong this was. Gaining weight, food freedom and more love for my body has meant I’m the strongest and happiest (while climbing and in day to day life) I’ve ever been.

Please do not be afraid to talk, to ask for help. You deserve to recover, to love yourself and feel happy and free to enjoy life. '




 

[andy_e]

Wasn't sure whether to post more on this, but here goes.

I'm so glad you did post that Ian, thank you very much. It very clearly summises my thoughts in a way I couldn't express!

[tomtom]

Great post Ian. Thanks for sharing.

[IanP]

I'm so glad you did post that Ian, thank you very much. It very clearly summises my thoughts in a way I couldn't express!

Thanks Andy (and TT), comments appreciated.  Also those who commented privately.

[Johnny Brown]

The thing is, for many people, weight loss is the best short term tactic for hard climbing. Climbing is unavoidably a power-to-weight dependent sport. 

I really think that statement needs some caveats Stu. This post will be here for years, you're posting under your real name and only a moments googling will be required to confirm that you are on paper perhaps the best sport climber regularly posting on the forum, with one of the hardest ticks in the country. So the statement will be taken seriously.

Presumably you mean to say that for an experienced adult sport climber climbing at very high grades and looking to achieve a lifetime hardest tick that weight loss will typically - perhaps necessarily - be part of the strategy for redpoint success. But I assume it is a tactic to adopt when pretty much all the gains from other tactics have been maxed out, and you are operating at the limit of injury.

Because that's absolutely not what you've written. You can't take all the other stuff as a given.

[Davo]

The thing is, for many people, weight loss is the best short term tactic for hard climbing. Climbing is unavoidably a power-to-weight dependent sport. 

I really think that statement needs some caveats Stu. This post will be here for years, you're posting under your real name and only a moments googling will be required to confirm that you are on paper perhaps the best sport climber regularly posting on the forum, with one of the hardest ticks in the country. So the statement will be taken seriously.

Presumably you mean to say that for an experienced adult sport climber climbing at very high grades and looking to achieve a lifetime hardest tick that weight loss will typically - perhaps necessarily - be part of the strategy for redpoint success. But I assume it is a tactic to adopt when pretty much all the gains from other tactics have been maxed out, and you are operating at the limit of injury.

Because that's absolutely not what you've written. You can't take all the other stuff as a given.

This is clearly all true and shows how difficult this area is. From reading Stu’s post I personally did take all the other stuff you describe as a given whereas I take your point that someone new to the sport may well not understand all the caveats that you describe and instead take it to mean that weight loss is the best route to an increase in performance.

Dave

[abarro81]

it is a tactic to adopt when pretty much all the gains from other tactics have been maxed out,

I'd probably drop it into the toolkit slightly earlier than you suggest, i.e. for a few of your "top" performances not just one, but would broadly agree. Certainly I'd agree that a teen or 20-something would be best not going down that route, and certainly not extensively - leave it for when you can't just come back in a year or two knowing you'll be better/stronger by then. I suspect I've made errors in the past on this front.

To some extent this is why I don't like it when it seems like people try to shut down or somewhat shame those engaging in critical discussion - I think you need that discussion to convince people it's a trick for near the bottom of the "things to try" list not the top. Otherwise it's just a "don't do drugs because they're bad, and don't ask questions" vibe, which I think a motivated performance-focused climber might find rather unconvincing. I know I would. Perhaps this is just a problem with separating "screwing up by dieting" vs "eating disorders", which are very different but also quite hard to really separate out due to the overlaps...