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SW Area Zoom meeting 27 th Jan. Anstey’s issues. (Read 14669 times)

macca7

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Wow!

Well that is comprehensive thanks matt much appreciated!

Having never been in winter could you always see down the wall from the top fence? It really does look like a hell of a lot has been cut down before you even go onto the ground works. I always thought how hidden away it was from the top entrance it seems to be far from that now.

There is clearly a lot of work gone into this its such a shame that effort wasn't put to use somewhere and on something far more appropriate.

How do you move forward? It obviously needs to stop and then hope nobody important notices it? I think if the relevant people are approached there could well be problems?

Bonjoy

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Will Hunt

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Looking back up.


Comparing that against Bonjoy's linked image, it doesn't actually look too bad. Obviously it might look quite different in person. The slope was obviously in a bit of a state anyway. From my distant armchair it might fall into the "good thing to try and do, but do a less extensive job and do it better" box.

Edit: except it's in a SSSI. Oops.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 02:20:03 pm by Will Hunt »

Oldmanmatt

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Looking back up.


Comparing that against Bonjoy's linked image, it doesn't actually look too bad. Obviously it might look quite different in person. The slope was obviously in a bit of a state anyway. From my distant armchair it might fall into the "good thing to try and do, but do a less extensive job and do it better" box.

Edit: except it's in a SSSI. Oops.

You’re not wrong.
Or not far off.

If I’d found terraces built into the existing slope, say extending 5’-10’ from the face (or, as far as the overhang, if you will), and approx. 1’-2’ high; I’d have been well impressed. It could have been done without such extensive works.
They’ve cut trees from around 20’ from the face. I’ve fallen off there quite a bit, don’t recall ever hitting a tree or even thinking I might. Even so, trimming back branches, is a different ball game to cutting down the tree.

I think it could be salvaged (or, perhaps, finished. It’s hard to tell if this is how it was meant to be left, or if it’s only half done).

The cleared area is 3 or 4 times  what was there before and more than that in places. I might go back with a tape and plot to obviously cut brush/under growth and compare it to where the growth has been cut to.

Like I said above. I was shocked. I went in thinking there was some “old fuddy” overreacting going on.

Motown

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Thanks Matt for all the detail. Will add support to the idea that it is now ‘noticeable’. I walked down to Redgate on Boxing Day with a couple of friends and our young children. It was the first time I’ve been down there with non-climbers and it’s been clear that this is a spot for climbing.

BrutusTheBear

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In case anyone wondered.  The boulder in the 6th photo of the first set is indeed held up by a log and a spoon!

Oldmanmatt

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In case anyone wondered.  The boulder in the 6th photo of the first set is indeed held up by a log and a spoon!
Yeah.
I’m trying not to over egg the possibility of someone getting hurt, but it might happen.

The liability issue is messy.

Edit:

I did not feel the spoon was integral to the system, however I was disinclined to remove it and test the hypothesis.

BrutusTheBear

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BTW I haven't been there myself..I saw a close up of the spoon from another locals photo.
I'm saving my annual visit for better times although I'm more inclined to go to LQP for some DWS action if I'm down that way.
From what I know the 'work' has been carried out by one person and that he believes he is acting in good faith.  Although a part of me can't help thinking it has been done partly to gain approval or appreciation to help feed into his YouTube channel.. But backfired a little.  :shrug:

shark

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How did this go?

Oldmanmatt

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Ah , well...
93 attendees, or there abouts.
Turns out somebody had already reported the “work” to TCCT and so it’s dropped very much into Rob’s lap and is really more of a national issue now.
So, discussion of the “quality” was suppressed, for obvious reasons and we’re into the “working group” liaising with National Council and (hopefully) Jamie P joining the TCCT rep to review the “works” and their impact.
Thus far, I don’t think Natural England are involved. I suspect that depends on the TCCT rep’s reaction when he sees it. Jamie is hoping to explain the intent of the work and it’s benefits, rather than let them walk into something that really wouldn’t make sense to a non-climber.
I wasn’t going to post, I don’t want to step on toes.
I think the atmosphere of the meeting was largely against the works, if not overwhelmingly so. There were some quite angry participants and a few were broadly supportive of what’s been done. Not so easy to read the room on Zoom, so that’s largely based on the chat etc.
However (and I think for the best) no motion to condemn the action was undertaken.
Opinion:
I think making a positive effort to move forward, with the landowner and stressing our willingness and enthusiasm to work with them to a solution they are satisfied with, is the only appropriate course. To that end, we must wait for their response before any action is taken.
I don’t think avoiding climbing is necessary, yet, but perhaps some common sense, if you find it already busy, might be in order, whilst the situation remains unresolved...

reeve

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Thanks Matt. Your summary is much more helpful and dispassionate than the one that was posted on UKC which had the thread locked straight away  :lol:

Oldmanmatt

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Thanks Matt. Your summary is much more helpful and dispassionate than the one that was posted on UKC which had the thread locked straight away  :lol:

I hate that channel, avoid it.

I just went to look and it’s completely gone. I assume a bit like locked and logged here, but harder to find? Or completely deleted? As a search returns “no such topic”.
Must have been quite a rant?
The angriest participant, was very pro the work and seemed to think the landowner/Natural England et al could simply be told to F off. Again, very hard to get a true read, given the forum type.
One thing about Zoom meetings, is that you come to realise how much business is actually done during coffee and snack breaks, between the segments of the “real” meeting and that without that informal interaction, compromise and consensus is much harder to achieve.

duncan

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Thank for reporting Matt. Hope the meeting was productive, it’s hard to do the ‘nemawashi’ currently as you say.

Wood FT

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A big positive out of it that I can see is that there is obviously now a motivated group who really care about being crag custodians. Another bolting workshop down there would be a great idea as the last one resulted in all of Torbryan being rebolted by one very psyched individual. Anstey's has the same old staples, on Empire wall at least, and would benefit from the same treatment. Obviously, this is down the way when the dust has settled on this particular turbo-Tommy Walsh incident.

Stabbsy

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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).

Oldmanmatt

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A big positive out of it that I can see is that there is obviously now a motivated group who really care about being crag custodians. Another bolting workshop down there would be a great idea as the last one resulted in all of Torbryan being rebolted by one very psyched individual. Anstey's has the same old staples, on Empire wall at least, and would benefit from the same treatment. Obviously, this is down the way when the dust has settled on this particular turbo-Tommy Walsh incident.
I started to put out feelers in that direction.
I realised the Bunker would be a good place to base that/store tools/raise money etc (open 7 days etc) and, assuming I actually get to start my new job in April, I’m going to be at a loose end for a month, every other month. I already have a shit load of tools, PPE and rope etc and I live ten minutes walk from the crag.
Now my kids are older and more independent, I’m finding myself with unaccustomed free time and some fresh air, stunning views and macho power tools, might be a rewarding way to fill an hour or two.

Oldmanmatt

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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).

There was a pro Ecologist at the meeting, familiar with some of the legal implications of such actions in such a place. I think, given the honest intentions of the person who started the work and their genuine desire to benefit the community, they deserve as much support, even protection as that community can muster. I think lessons have been learned.
It’s not as if this was intentional vandalism, it was well meaning. I think people need to make that distinction and understand the degree of generosity to the community, that was intended and, frankly, the Herculean effort made by that individual. A  misguided attempt, is not the same a malign endeavour.

shark

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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).

The thread is still there:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/crag_access/ansteys_bmc_area_meeting-730194?v=1#x9388406

The comment that “ Surely this level of environmental vandalism is a criminal offence” was from a Pete O’ Sullivan who presumably is the local guidebook writer and new router of the same name

teestub

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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).

I think Alan said that he was removing the threads in case they were seen by the land owners.

Oldmanmatt

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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).

The thread is still there:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/crag_access/ansteys_bmc_area_meeting-730194?v=1#x9388406

The comment that “ Surely this level of environmental vandalism is a criminal offence” was from a Pete O’ Sullivan who presumably is the local guidebook writer and new router of the same name

That actually seemed quite anodyne.
Under the circumstances, it’s going to be pretty difficult discussing anything, if the threads are shut down. However, the point made at the meeting is the crucial issue.
The landowner is aware of the issue, has been in contact with Rob D and “we” really cannot do anything until we know the landowner’s reaction and they have (generously) not made any public reaction and agreed to inspect the site before doing so. That’s actually quite an amazing response. However, it seems obvious that public discussion of the merits or quality or whatnot of the work, might influence the landowner.
Just as I’m slightly concerned that, if on the day of the inspection, there’s fifty climbers lounging about the crag dropping crisp packets and crapping in bushes (exaggerated for effect. They probably won’t be lounging, would have picked up the packet, buried  the crap etc, but that’s possibly not what the impression might be, to a landowner’s rep, who doesn’t climb and probably had no idea how popular this out of sight old quarry).
I think some mention from those who had visited, was required, but discretion was important.
The debate about what needs to be done, or not, is for later. I viewed the meeting as an opportunity to explain what had happened and how the BMC intend to react, initially and to put everybody on notice of seriousness of the issue.
Again, once the landowner has made their position clear, then we can, with them, work out a way forward.
Do I have to paint a picture of the “worst case scenario” here?
None of us own it, but we all value it.
Emotional reactions, particularly anger, will not help and might hinder progress.
What’s done is done.
Fix the problem, not the blame.

tomrainbow

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I went to the meeting the other night as well and have been down to the crag to see the extent of the work; I think that the way the community has rallied and (generally) looked to try and find a way to move forward with this has been encouraging. It was frustrating that it was not clear at the end of the meeting as to how to express an interest in getting involved in a working party should one be set up. I for one, rarely check the BMC website but would be very happy to be involved in any attempts to 'make good' the work that has been carried out. I do think a landscape engineer should be brought in to advise though as the work done has been so substantial that I wouldn't feel confident that a group of well intentioned yet (presumably) largely ignorant climbers would make the situation any better left to their own devices...

I wonder whether there should also be some consideration made for the person who has done this work. Whilst I have many issues with what has been done, as Matt has said, I am sure he was acting with good intentions, has done a phenomenal amount of of work and must now feel (if he's kept up with developments) that he has been somewhat vilified for what he has done.

Ged

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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).

The thread is still there:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/crag_access/ansteys_bmc_area_meeting-730194?v=1#x9388406

The comment that “ Surely this level of environmental vandalism is a criminal offence” was from a Pete O’ Sullivan who presumably is the local guidebook writer and new router of the same name

Are you confusing with Pete saunders?

Oldmanmatt

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I’m not a Civil Engineer, I’m a Marine Engineer, but I’ve designed Marinas and Dock/Shipyard installations. I have working knowledge of the basics.
However, given the issues, Tom is probably right. However, a pro would make it expensive, unless we can find a volunteer from within the community.

tomrainbow

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I trained as a civil engineer but certainly wouldn't feel confident in offering advice. I am sure we can find someone who climbs who fits the bill.

teestub

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Could get a topo survey and a design done for £2-3k. Not sure what the local BMC finances are like but I’m sure head office could stump this up to hopefully maintain access to a significant crag. I think getting a pro to do it will give it more credence with the land owners and also back up any design with PL and PI insurance.

 

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