[Fultonius]

on some of the boards I've used there's an over abundance of Jenga block style crimps, where you can use your thumb on the short end of the crimp or you can get a bit of pinch action on it. In my experience this is significantly easier than an equivalent sized edge where you can't get any thumb

All my first set of holds when I built my wall in May we're like this. It not only means you rely a lot on the thumb (easier) but you also really restrict the hand a wrist position, I actually started getting some signs of overuse in the thumb/wrist area.

Since then I reshaped most of them with sloping a rounded undersides so that the thumb action was minimised.

Is it a good/bad idea never to train full thumb-over-index full-boned crimping? I have a bit of a conflict there, as I generally feel you should at least do a small part of your training on all hold types to prepare for what you get outside, but then I never do full crimp on either the fingerboard or the board, but occasionally when just doing problems at TCA.

[T_B]

Not sure if this is the point t_b was trying to make, but on some of the boards I've used there's an over abundance of Jenga block style crimps, where you can use your thumb on the short end of the crimp or you can get a bit of pinch action on it. In my experience this is significantly easier than an equivalent sized edge where you can't get any thumb action on the go, and if you use the holds a lot then you can become over reliant on the thumb. It can be a bit of a shock when you then get outside and feel weak on holds just because you can't get the thumb involved.

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Nothing radical, it’s the basis on which Beastmaker marketed their fingerboard initially.

Obviously you use your thumbs outside on pinches and weak thumbs might be an issue occasionally, but I can’t think of many moves where I wish I had stronger thumbs (the first move of Hulk at Crag X springs to mind). I can think of lots of moves on limestone in particular where your thumb can’t assist much and where I’m just not strong enough in the fingers. I therefore buy into the idea that isolating a weak digit (in my case, my index finger) is a good idea and practically it’s easier to do that and force half crimp on a fingerboard, as opposed to a steep board.

[tomtom]

Ah... understand now TB.

[DavidM]

Interesting conversation as I've only had my own board for about 3 months and I've found the thumb creeping in on everything and I can see the value in both.

I've got some disc style crimps as discussed but can anyone recommend and other good crimp or other holds to that matter that eliminate the thumb on approach in resin or wood. Basically any advice on some variety to add in to what people describe as the pinch and crimp fest.!

Any suggestions gratefully received.

[SA Chris]

Just discipline yourself not to use thumb?

Otherwise if you have a lot of Junga blocks you can just plane down the "thumb" end so you can't use it?

I've got a "ladder" made from old curtain rod screwed on, and can use it full crimp with thumb on end, full crimp without thumb on, or half crimp without.

[honroid]

On rock you're always discussing 'how exactly do you hold this hold then..' I find thumbs are often a key part of this discussion. Friction allows you to really use the thumb to get the most out of holds. On the board I use thumbs a tonne but then equally set rules for certain problems/moves/holds that don't allow thumbs, just like impose rules of no heel hooks or toe hooks sometimes. Gets frustrating but adds variety and is a good training tool.

On topic, I use my board between 3 and 5 times a week depending on the week and I hangboard twice a week. I have just started hangboarding short Int hangs / repeaters session after a power endurance session rather than hangboarding on strength day which is something Eva Lopez advises. 

[mrjonathanr]

Sounds like quite a lot for fingers to recover from long term.

[honroid]

Not really. The power endurance day is two rounds of two linked boulders at the beginning of the cycle building to three rounds of three linked boulders. The int hangs is two sets of three reps building to five sets. Done on two grips. It's not a lot really is it.

[Aussiegav]

An update and a quandary.
I stopped doing fingerboard sessions in July 2021 and did more board climbing. Which interestingly and maybe not surprisingly, my fingers got weaker.
Over the last 5weeks I’ve reintroduced fingerboard sessions. Doing 2 sets of density hangs/week to build connective tissue and tendons. 
So tonight I did a 10s max hang assessment on a 20mm lattice edge in preparation for 6 week block of 10s max hangs.


Base weight with dipping belt =87.4kg

Max hang was 87.4kg + 17.7kg = 106kg

My fingers are depressingly weak. 

So reaching out to the knowledgeable folk again. 
Do I;
1. Go for 3 sessions/week of max hangs and drop a boulder session (currently doing 2 board sessions per week with one sport session). I want to keep the sport session.

2. Do a 3rd session of max hangs before a boulder session

3. Do 2 sessions/week of max hangs & stay with the two bouldering sessions.

[James Malloch]

An update and a quandary.
I stopped doing fingerboard sessions in July 2021 and did more board climbing. Which interestingly and maybe not surprisingly, my fingers got weaker.
Over the last 5weeks I’ve reintroduced fingerboard sessions. Doing 2 sets of density hangs/week to build connective tissue and tendons. 
So tonight I did a 10s max hang assessment on a 20mm lattice edge in preparation for 6 week block of 10s max hangs.


Base weight with dipping belt =87.4kg

Max hang was 87.4kg + 17.7kg = 106kg

My fingers are depressingly weak. 

So reaching out to the knowledgeable folk again. 
Do I;
1. Go for 3 sessions/week of max hangs and drop a boulder session (currently doing 2 board sessions per week with one sport session). I want to keep the sport session.

2. Do a 3rd session of max hangs before a boulder session

3. Do 2 sessions/week of max hangs & stay with the two bouldering sessions.

I don’t really know anything about this kind of thing, but I’ve just started a plan from a coach/physio.

I did a 7s Max hang test and I’m doing 6x10s max hangs 2-3 times a week, but using 85% of my “total” 7s weight (my weight + weight added).

I didn’t want to stop board sessions so he’s put them in at the start of a session. So 15 mins warm up, some recruitment hangs, 10s hang, 2 min rest x6, and then a board session.

The hangs are really making me feel recruited and strong for the board session so that way seems to be working for me.

[Bradders]

Option 3.

[jwi]

I didn’t want to stop board sessions so he’s put them in at the start of a session. So 15 mins warm up, some recruitment hangs, 10s hang, 2 min rest x6, and then a board session.

The hangs are really making me feel recruited and strong for the board session so that way seems to be working for me.

That's interesting. I cannot really do any bouldering after a fingerboard session. Even if I just do warmup + 4 x 10 s hangs in the morning, I am usually noticeable weaker bouldering in the evening. If I do them just before climbing I am pretty useless. Some people have told me that is because my hangboard sessions are too hard and I should do the hangs at lower intensity. I have experimented with that a bit, but felt that in that case they add very little value and mostly just eat time on a busy schedule.

Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).

[MischaHY]

An update and a quandary.
I stopped doing fingerboard sessions in July 2021 and did more board climbing. Which interestingly and maybe not surprisingly, my fingers got weaker.
Over the last 5weeks I’ve reintroduced fingerboard sessions. Doing 2 sets of density hangs/week to build connective tissue and tendons. 
So tonight I did a 10s max hang assessment on a 20mm lattice edge in preparation for 6 week block of 10s max hangs.


Base weight with dipping belt =87.4kg

Max hang was 87.4kg + 17.7kg = 106kg

My fingers are depressingly weak. 

So reaching out to the knowledgeable folk again. 
Do I;
1. Go for 3 sessions/week of max hangs and drop a boulder session (currently doing 2 board sessions per week with one sport session). I want to keep the sport session.

2. Do a 3rd session of max hangs before a boulder session

3. Do 2 sessions/week of max hangs & stay with the two bouldering sessions.

I don’t really know anything about this kind of thing, but I’ve just started a plan from a coach/physio.

I did a 7s Max hang test and I’m doing 6x10s max hangs 2-3 times a week, but using 85% of my “total” 7s weight (my weight + weight added).

I didn’t want to stop board sessions so he’s put them in at the start of a session. So 15 mins warm up, some recruitment hangs, 10s hang, 2 min rest x6, and then a board session.

The hangs are really making me feel recruited and strong for the board session so that way seems to be working for me.

For balance I'd like to say that when I do this it tends to lead to overtraining or a drop in quality on the board session.

Personally I've started looking at max hangs and board training a little differently lately and am risking a whole winter season on applying this thought process. In the past I've always looked at max hangs as a primary strength training tool but more recently I've started viewing them in a similar way to aeropow i.e. this 'sharpening the blade' preparatory training that can deliver a peak performance in a short period.

The thing I noticed and wanted to test is that if I don't do any max hangs then I can do 4 board sessions per week plus an endurance top up. This is split into 2x max boulder and 2x ancap. It's already a lot of load for the fingers so trying to work any fingerboarding into this just doesn't make sense, and I know that the board climbing is higher volume, more specific and more power developing. My thought process is that this higher volume of board climbing will lead to overall more consistent strength/power/ancap gains (and variety!). The plan is then to move into an aeropow phase with less board volume, at which point I'll bring the max hangs in to get everything maximally recruited.

However it's probably worth pointing out that my board is very rock focused and has a lot of small crimps/pockets and is generally very finger intensive to climb on - so this is definitely a contributing factor in my decision process. I also have a fairly high base level of finger strength, so this also plays a role in the decision making.

Hope this is useful as an anecdote, if nothing else! We'll see whether it pays off once conditions come around again.

[Stu Littlefair]

Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).

  You're weird!

To counteract Mischa and JWI, I will do 3-4 max hangs (~5s at 100% max) before a hard bouldering session. I find it necessary to feel recruited and it has a big positive impact on my bouldering.

I guess it should be obvious whether hangs before the board are impacting your board session or not. If they are, try lowering the volume (number and duration) before ditching the idea completely.

[jwi]

Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).

  You're weird!

I once did my personal best on the thinnest rungs on the campus board in the gym (thin enough that some people who climb well into the eights but have short pinkies cannot do a single move on them) after half a session of laps on a long boulder (50s climbing time).

[James Malloch]

I didn’t want to stop board sessions so he’s put them in at the start of a session. So 15 mins warm up, some recruitment hangs, 10s hang, 2 min rest x6, and then a board session.

The hangs are really making me feel recruited and strong for the board session so that way seems to be working for me.

That's interesting. I cannot really do any bouldering after a fingerboard session. Even if I just do warmup + 4 x 10 s hangs in the morning, I am usually noticeable weaker bouldering in the evening. If I do them just before climbing I am pretty useless. Some people have told me that is because my hangboard sessions are too hard and I should do the hangs at lower intensity. I have experimented with that a bit, but felt that in that case they add very little value and mostly just eat time on a busy schedule.

Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).

I’ve never really trained much before, so it might just be feeling okay at the moment but time will tell.

My aims are perhaps a little different too. I’ve got a trip coming up in 8 weeks, so I basically had 10 weeks to try and get what I can. Main thing was aerobic capacity so I’m doing 2-3 sessions of this after a board session. And I was quite adamant I didn’t want it to feel too “training” like.

So the hangs only take 10 mins at the start of a session. Then board session is just more of a fun one, nothing structured, try some problems, try some circuits, whatever I’m feeling like really. Then 20 mins of endurance work at the end and then some pull ups.

Perhaps if I was going harder on the board session then I’d be finding it more difficult. But I just do it to how I feel really. Maybe for me the fact I’ve not done hangs (or really any structured training) before is boosting my strength enough for it to be noticeable in the board sessions despite the higher load.

[MischaHY]

Contrary to much literature and received wisdom, I can usually do a short campusboard or fingerboard session with high quality after some type of strength endurance (anaerobic cap for instance) as long as I am not going to absolute failure on the strength endurance (and I feel like these sessions are still productive).

  You're weird!

To counteract Mischa and JWI, I will do 3-4 max hangs (~5s at 100% max) before a hard bouldering session. I find it necessary to feel recruited and it has a big positive impact on my bouldering.

I guess it should be obvious whether hangs before the board are impacting your board session or not. If they are, try lowering the volume (number and duration) before ditching the idea completely.

Ah I think we're crossing wires a bit here, I still do a short mix of unstructured hangs or hanging static positions on the board before getting properly into it, especially because it helps define day form and dictate session intensity to a given extent. However this differs in intensity compared to you because I would need a more focused session to come up to actual 100% max hang and by the time I reach the point where I can deliver a true benchmark effort I've cost power that now can't go into the board session.
I'm at a convenient stage right now where bodyweight on the Beastmaker middle rung is about 90% of max so as part of the warm up for a max boulder session I'll often do a couple of bodyweight hangs on the middle rung and one or two on the outside edge (no tight timeframe, usually 3-5 seconds) as when I can do this it indicates I'm ready to pull hard on the board.
My point was more that I don't do a full structured max hangs session with 6-8 reps on each side with weight added as this would be too fatiguing and cost me a lot of good attempts in my board session. However considering it maybe I'm taking advantage of having a good enough finger strength base that I don't need to put focus on it to stay at a non-limiting level. It's certainly not my limiting factor as discussed on the energy systems thread.

[Wellsy]

I found that the path to finger strength for me was a lot of climbing at my limit, like 3-4 sessions a week of redlining the little bastards.

Injury risk is high in retrospect. But it did work, my fingers got a lot stronger. I've started fingerboarding and so far my attitude is similar; whack on weight, try really hard, do it as well as loads of climbing.

[cheque]

I found that the path to finger strength for me was a lot of climbing at my limit, like 3-4 sessions a week of redlining the little bastards.

Injury risk is high in retrospect. But it did work, my fingers got a lot stronger. I've started fingerboarding and so far my attitude is similar; whack on weight, try really hard, do it as well as loads of climbing.

I’m sure this is great advice for the younger reader but my experience as someone who started climbing at 28 is that it probably belongs in the same category as “just drink as much as you like because you probably won’t get a hangover”  .

[abarro81]

Gav - my first thought is are your fingers actually weaker or are you just worse at hanging an edge because you've not done much of it? I can take a few sessions to relearn how to feel strong hanging a given edge (even if I'm used to hanging 1 arm, it can be specific, e.g. if I train open 4 on the BM edge I would need a few sessions to reach max half-crimp on the lattice edge or if I've done lots of half-crimp I might need a few sessions to regain max on open 4). This obviously may not be true for you, but worth considering...

p.s. I'm also in the camp where I often like a few max hangs or max campus moves as an intro to board sessions. The exception is front 3 half crimp - if I do even a few maximal hangs on this grip I feel like I've drained the tank an inexplicable amount

p.p.s. I agree with cheque!

[gme]

An update and a quandary.
I


Base weight with dipping belt =87.4kg

Max hang was 87.4kg + 17.7kg = 106kg

My fingers are depressingly weak. 

So reaching out to the knowledgeable folk again. 
Do I;
1. Go for 3 sessions/week of max hangs and drop a boulder session (currently doing 2 board sessions per week with one sport session). I want to keep the sport session.

2. Do a 3rd session of max hangs before a boulder session

3. Do 2 sessions/week of max hangs & stay with the two bouldering sessions.

Gav. This really isnt that weak. I have not done any hangs for ages but looking back at last year when i did some on a lattice rung i could only manage +20kg in the tests with my weight at 86kg with belt. II was pretty steady at 7A/B outside at this time and 6C/+ on the moonboard which i think is a good bit above you.

Best i did on the BM1k 20mms was +40kg after the 1st lockdown when i all i had to do was deadhang. In my experiance this equates to about 30kg on lattice rung as i can drag the BM.

If i was you i would drop the deadhangs completely and just boulder.

[Wellsy]

I found that the path to finger strength for me was a lot of climbing at my limit, like 3-4 sessions a week of redlining the little bastards.

Injury risk is high in retrospect. But it did work, my fingers got a lot stronger. I've started fingerboarding and so far my attitude is similar; whack on weight, try really hard, do it as well as loads of climbing.

I’m sure this is great advice for the younger reader but my experience as someone who started climbing at 28 is that it probably belongs in the same category as “just drink as much as you like because you probably won’t get a hangover”  .

I can see where you're coming from 100%. I started when I was 29 mind you. I'm now 32 and the last time I tried my max it was 45kgs added weight on the 20mm BM edge for 5+ seconds. It's probably higher now if the challenge of my working sets is anything to go by. But I appreciate that n = 1 etc

[cheque]

  Well I’ve no excuse then.

[Wellsy]

Well I’ve no excuse then.

Out of interest do you find fingerboarding has helped you a lot?

[Bradders]

I was quite adamant I didn’t want it to feel too “training” like.

Always find it so strange when climbers are this averse to training, even when they're keen to improve. Very much seems like trying to have your cake and eat it!

The exception is front 3 half crimp - if I do even a few maximal hangs on this grip I feel like I've drained the tank an inexplicable amount

Interesting, I've recently been doing mono and middle 2 half crimp pick ups and have similarly felt a bit impact on subsequent board sessions!

I think with lots of this it's about whether your body is adapted to the stress. Yes fingerboarding before a board session or climbing outside might take a lot away from the latter initially, but you'll adapt to doing it over time.