[Fiend]

It seems like a senseless waste of a grit season to spend it repeating the same act of self destruction. It would be nice to do some moves that aren't the start of The Fonze.

I, for one, and for what zero it's worth, respect that sort of decision. Life's too short to be banging your head against a wall that mangles you each time. I'm guessing there's probably quite a few less injuruous and less frustrating challenges available in Yorkshire too.

[Bradders]

I'm guessing there's probably quite a few less injuruous and less frustrating challenges available in Yorkshire too.

I actually said the complete opposite to Will the other day; hard gritstone bouldering is almost always going to involve a battle with your skin. That's just part of the game, and one of the things that make it quite unique to other areas/rock types, in my opinion. You can't just turn up strong, fit and climbing well, which can be enough on more positive rock types; at your limit on grit you have to be very tactical and persistent as well.

[Fiend]

True indeed Bradders, but this one looks like a particular mauler - no tips left rather than abraded tips. And IIRC Will's lone achilles heal is weak skin?? Maybe he needs something uncrimpable

Sorry for butting in to the topic but I did like the tactical surrender idea.

[Will Hunt]

There seems to be an underlying premise that the pleasure in bouldering is derived from turning up to the same boulder and trying the same moves, then having a week or two off and doing exactly the same thing again when the skin is healed. If that's your thing then fine. Due variously to skin, weather, and circumstances I haven't climbed in a meaningful way anywhere other than Brimham since the start of November. If I could pop along for lamp sessions and still get out somewhere different at the weekend I'd be psyched, but if trying the Fonze is mutually exclusive to other climbing then what's the point? If it was an 8A tick with the beta I use then I might stick it out as a way to tick a milestone, but this is unlikely. As it is I might go back and try it pre-taped up, but I very much don't want to do the same thing again and miss some decent conditions. Mercifully the only thing I've missed so far is clag.

[teestub]

There seems to be an underlying premise that the pleasure in bouldering is derived from turning up to the same boulder and trying the same moves, then having a week or two off and doing exactly the same thing again when the skin is healed.

I think the underlying premise is more that, if you want to climb something that’s actually hard for you, it’s going to take more than three sessions. This investment of time comes along with doubt in one’s abilities and whether it’s a sensible use of limited time. This is especially so if you’re goal oriented and not process oriented. Personally I enjoy the process of trying hard boulders and working out how to get better on them probably more than the actual achievement.

Many be this isn’t the problem for you due to your horrendous skin, but as mentioned pretty much all hard grit bouldering is skin intensive in one way or another.

[Bradders]

Just my opinion and sorry to keep banging on about it but I think you're looking at it in completely the wrong way. However as long as you're happy knowing you'll never achieve anything anywhere near your potential approaching it like that, then it's all good

If it was an 8A tick with the beta I use then I might stick it out as a way to tick a milestone, but this is unlikely.

And you're definitely wrong about this. Consensus from a lot of people with a lot of experience is that it is 8A including with your sequence. Just because you find that sequence doable doesn't mean it lowers the grade.

[spidermonkey09]

I think the underlying premise is more that, if you want to climb something that’s actually hard for you, it’s going to take more than three sessions. This investment of time comes along with doubt in one’s abilities and whether it’s a sensible use of limited time. This is especially so if you’re goal oriented and not process oriented. Personally I enjoy the process of trying hard boulders and working out how to get better on them probably more than the actual achievement.

Great post. Its especially going to take longer than 3 sessions on grit, as we all know. I think its fair comment to say that the above premise has a greater sway on those who regularly use this site than say, a UKC poster though, so Will was probably always likely to get more people saying 'keep at it' than 'sack it off' on here. I would be very unlikely to drop something having got that close as my obsessive nature wouldn't allow me to do so, but clearly he can compartmentalise it better than I would be able to. I seem to remember Will not being as psyched on Subculture over the summer as most are with their first 8a so maybe for him, he'll do things quick or not at all on balance. Maybe he's more balanced than the rest of us... 

Although good to see Bradders calling will out on the latest downgrade  interesting discussion.

[El Mocho]

Just my opinion and sorry to keep banging on about it but I think you're looking at it in completely the wrong way. However as long as you're happy knowing you'll never achieve anything anywhere near your potential approaching it like that, then it's all good

It depends on what you mean by 'your potential'. If you mean your potential as the hardest grade you can climb then true. I guess for me I judge people's ability on more than what is the hardest grade they have climbed. What about Will's potential to climb hard boulders in 1 session? His potential to flash problems? His potential to climb knacky, weird, balancy aretes?

I've spent my life doing as many different types of climbing as I can and have put relatively less time into training, long term red pointing etc so you could argue I've never reached my potential top sport grade but if I had focused more on that I think I would have never reached the same level in adventurous trad climbing etc

I think JB is one of the best climbers I go out with, I also think Ned is. And they can both do things the other can't. JB could climb a lot 'harder' if he trained a bit. Ned has the potential to climb some really hard trad routes. JB can't be arsed training but has used his time to become a wizard at balancy grit aretes and slabs. Ned can't be arsed fiddling wires in or wearing a rope but has spent his time getting incredibly strong and good at hard bouldering.

If Will want's to quest around making quick ascents of slightly overgraded reachy boulder problems and then downgrading them then that's what he'll probably get good at + it seems to be what he enjoys.

[Will Hunt]

If Will want's to quest around making quick ascents of slightly overgraded reachy boulder problems and then downgrading them then that's what he'll probably get good at + it seems to be what he enjoys.

Finally someone gets me.
 

[andy popp]

Just my opinion and sorry to keep banging on about it but I think you're looking at it in completely the wrong way. However as long as you're happy knowing you'll never achieve anything anywhere near your potential approaching it like that, then it's all good

It depends on what you mean by 'your potential'.

I agree with absolutely all of this Ben, but would frame it even more holistically. So I think of it in terms of not only the climbing I chose to do and how I went about doing it, but also in terms of all other life choices I've made: choosing to form relationships, have children, pursue a career. So I can look back at what I did in climbing and, even knowing I could undoubtedly have climbed physically harder (Stevie Haston once berated me on these pages for not realising my potential as if I'd neglected some kind of duty, which I found really weird) and be completely content. Over the years I've absolutely got as much satisfaction and reward from my work as I have from climbing.

[northern yob]

Just my opinion and sorry to keep banging on about it but I think you're looking at it in completely the wrong way. However as long as you're happy knowing you'll never achieve anything anywhere near your potential approaching it like that, then it's all good

It depends on what you mean by 'your potential'. If you mean your potential as the hardest grade you can climb then true. I guess for me I judge people's ability on more than what is the hardest grade they have climbed. What about Will's potential to climb hard boulders in 1 session? His potential to flash problems? His potential to climb knacky, weird, balancy aretes?

I've spent my life doing as many different types of climbing as I can and have put relatively less time into training, long term red pointing etc so you could argue I've never reached my potential top sport grade but if I had focused more on that I think I would have never reached the same level in adventurous trad climbing etc

I think JB is one of the best climbers I go out with, I also think Ned is. And they can both do things the other can't. JB could climb a lot 'harder' if he trained a bit. Ned has the potential to climb some really hard trad routes. JB can't be arsed training but has used his time to become a wizard at balancy grit aretes and slabs. Ned can't be arsed fiddling wires in or wearing a rope but has spent his time getting incredibly strong and good at hard bouldering.

If Will want's to quest around making quick ascents of slightly overgraded reachy boulder problems and then downgrading them then that's what he'll probably get good at + it seems to be what he enjoys.

Well said Ben, another vote for climbing being about more than the siege. Each to there own. As a serial underachiever fuck potential.

[36chambers]

If Will want's to quest around making quick ascents of slightly overgraded reachy boulder problems and then downgrading them then that's what he'll probably get good at + it seems to be what he enjoys.

Finally someone gets me.
 

Allez.

Unfortunately, there's also the slight issue of Will's desire to burn off keep up with his mates

[andy_e]

Goal-oriented climbing vs. soul-oriented climbing...

[remus]

Goal-oriented climbing vs. soul-oriented climbing...

I don't think they need to be opposing objectives, I reckon the best goals are ones that nourish the soul.

[andy_e]

Absolutely, it's a Venn diagram, that was just a glib excuse for some rhyme-based wordplay based on two opposing views being presented on this thread!

[Monolith]

Well done Will on taking Pex tactics to grit!

Very much enjoyed El Mocho's sentiments earlier; potential can be lots of different things to lots of different people.

[Will Hunt]

Well done Will on taking Pex tactics to grit!

Quite literally. The high LH hold works best when you utilise a Pex Stack.

[Fiend]

Goal-oriented climbing vs. soul-oriented climbing...

I don't think they need to be opposing objectives, I reckon the best goals are ones that nourish the soul.

Nice slogan Andy. But yeah also what remus said. It's almost like it could be desirable to have a balance between challenges / progression / focus and fun / relaxation / pleasure (a balance which then means that both hardcore projecteers and plodding bumblies both despair of you).

Edit: how the fuck did I break the quotes that much first time 

[teestub]

Somewhere like Brimham it’s entirely possible for Will to do all this in one session:
- Warm up on sandbag 6’s hoping no-one sees you shamefully use your knees to surmount the lip
- identify an easier for the tall overgraded 7, confirm that your more vertically challenged friends haven’t done it, send in a few goes whilst coming up with a witty power club entry when resting.
- move onto the the longer term project, spend a couple of hours failing whilst at the same time considering quite how many grades it needs to be downgraded by once you finally do it.

[Bradders]

It depends on what you mean by 'your potential'. If you mean your potential as the hardest grade you can climb then true. I guess for me I judge people's ability on more than what is the hardest grade they have climbed. What about Will's potential to climb hard boulders in 1 session? His potential to flash problems? His potential to climb knacky, weird, balancy aretes?

I've spent my life doing as many different types of climbing as I can and have put relatively less time into training, long term red pointing etc so you could argue I've never reached my potential top sport grade but if I had focused more on that I think I would have never reached the same level in adventurous trad climbing etc

I think JB is one of the best climbers I go out with, I also think Ned is. And they can both do things the other can't. JB could climb a lot 'harder' if he trained a bit. Ned has the potential to climb some really hard trad routes. JB can't be arsed training but has used his time to become a wizard at balancy grit aretes and slabs. Ned can't be arsed fiddling wires in or wearing a rope but has spent his time getting incredibly strong and good at hard bouldering.

If Will want's to quest around making quick ascents of slightly overgraded reachy boulder problems and then downgrading them then that's what he'll probably get good at + it seems to be what he enjoys.

Excellent post and I completely agree about deciding what you want from climbing. Forgive me though for making the assumption, based on the fact that he's trying a hard grit boulder problem, that Will wants to climb hard grit boulder problems 

Personally I can't imagine being that close to something I wanted to do and giving up, but that's just me.

[Bonjoy]

Just my opinion and sorry to keep banging on about it but I think you're looking at it in completely the wrong way. However as long as you're happy knowing you'll never achieve anything anywhere near your potential approaching it like that, then it's all good

It depends on what you mean by 'your potential'. If you mean your potential as the hardest grade you can climb then true. I guess for me I judge people's ability on more than what is the hardest grade they have climbed. What about Will's potential to climb hard boulders in 1 session? His potential to flash problems? His potential to climb knacky, weird, balancy aretes?

I've spent my life doing as many different types of climbing as I can and have put relatively less time into training, long term red pointing etc so you could argue I've never reached my potential top sport grade but if I had focused more on that I think I would have never reached the same level in adventurous trad climbing etc

I think JB is one of the best climbers I go out with, I also think Ned is. And they can both do things the other can't. JB could climb a lot 'harder' if he trained a bit. Ned has the potential to climb some really hard trad routes. JB can't be arsed training but has used his time to become a wizard at balancy grit aretes and slabs. Ned can't be arsed fiddling wires in or wearing a rope but has spent his time getting incredibly strong and good at hard bouldering.

If Will want's to quest around making quick ascents of slightly overgraded reachy boulder problems and then downgrading them then that's what he'll probably get good at + it seems to be what he enjoys.

  …especially the killer punchline.

I get annoyed when people throw around 'reaching your potential' as if it's synonymous with climbing the hardest grade possible for you.
I consciously made the decision years ago to forgo this kind of 'max potential' in order to concentrate on finding and doing new climbs. I knew it involved a huge amount of time spent doing stuff that doesn't make you fitter/stronger and there would be a big trade off. I have absolutely no regrets (other than listening to Keith Sharples who told me I wasn't allowed to use a kneebar on Mecca).
It's a favourite anecdote, and one I've probably used to Shark's annoyance on here too many times already - but I remember chatting with Shark on the Catwalk many years ago, having just done The Oak in three sessions, and him telling me I was wasting my potential, on the basis I was doing routes that didn't take me long enough.

[spidermonkey09]

I think JB is one of the best climbers I go out with, I also think Ned is. And they can both do things the other can't. JB could climb a lot 'harder' if he trained a bit. Ned has the potential to climb some really hard trad routes. JB can't be arsed training but has used his time to become a wizard at balancy grit aretes and slabs. Ned can't be arsed fiddling wires in or wearing a rope but has spent his time getting incredibly strong and good at hard bouldering.

Off topic: I know JB is a grit wizard but are there genuinely examples of him burning Ned off? Thats a great bit of kudos if so given Ned is not exactly a shit technician! 

[Bradders]

All fair points and I really don't disagree, just giving a different perspective.

To me reaching your potential isn't grade based at all but problem/route based, I.e., your potential to climb certain bits of rock. Slightly different but I feel like it's a less abstract way of thinking about it. There's then a spectrum of things you might achieve depending on the time / effort you put into them, and based on which ones you choose. All very individual.

[abarro81]

him telling me I was wasting my potential, on the basis I was doing routes that didn't take me long enough.

Yeah, the idea that not sieging/projecting isn't "at your limit", or isn't "fulfilling potential" is dumb. Plenty of people who've sieged the odd hard route have abjectly failed to achieve their potential in quick ticks and onsighting. Plenty have fulfilled it in quick ticks but never in projecting etc. I quite like to try to do onsights, quick ticks and projects... but have consequently abjectly failed to fulfil my potential on trad for the last decade, and if I were less into onsighting in Spain I'd have done more hard redpoints and maybe even a harder redpoint.

As Bradders alluded to, or at least how I read it, I think this is slightly distinct from binning off trying to climb as hard as possible in order to develop new routes/boulders, have babies, have a career, base jump, be an all rounder etc. I'd argue that all of these do stop you fulfilling your potential in certain aspects of climbing... but also might be more fun/make you more happy.

[shark]

Not that dumb. In terms of absolute difficulty if you are looking to climb your hardest then projecting is required.

Success isn’t guaranteed and I accept there is a point where it becomes counter productive.

[cheque]

No-one’s ever told me that I’m in danger of not fulfilling my potential but my choice to not focus on sieging is influenced largely by past feelings of disappointment in looking back on entire seasons of climbing and thinking “I only ticked 3 bloody routes” regardless of how hard said routes were.

I can relate to Will not wanting to spend all winter at the same bit of the same crag regardless of whether it’s his dubious-sounding crimp beta wrecking his skin or not. That’s not even how you spell Fonz!

[Hoseyb]

Exactly this. Im now doddering into my 33rd year of climbing, and whether the trad of my youth or the bouldering of my current incarnation the focus has always been adventure. I could have climbed harder, I could have concentrated on ticking my way through the classics. Instead the eyes to the horizon have always led me to the path less travelled. Not nessarily 3 stars, but always life affirming.

[Will Hunt]

That’s not even how you spell Fonz!

It's how we spell Fonze in Yorkshire. In fact, in checking the guidebook I discovered that if you were to take the Yorkshire Grit vol 1 view of things you'd start from the niche on the front face, not from the back of the roof, and certainly not by crabbing along some toss and illogical start that Webbo suggests was the original method (which nobody has used in years).

[Steve R]

Off topic: I know JB is a grit wizard but are there genuinely examples of him burning Ned off? Thats a great bit of kudos if so given Ned is not exactly a shit technician! 

A while ago and not Ned but burnt Pearson on Angel's share?  Hopefully there'll be more and better examples!

Generally, looks like there's a lot of retro-reasoning (justifying?) going on to me.  Not sure people have all that much agency over how they divide their climbing/training/time/life in reality.  Suspect most just gravitate towards an attractor state of what happens to be motivating/convenient/habitual for them, what (they think) they'll derive most fulfilment from.  More a nature and circumstances bottom up thing than a fully conscious top down planned allocation of resources and trade offs. 

[webbo]

That’s not even how you spell Fonz!

It's how we spell Fonze in Yorkshire. In fact, in checking the guidebook I discovered that if you were to take the Yorkshire Grit vol 1 view of things you'd start from the niche on the front face, not from the back of the roof, and certainly not by crabbing along some toss and illogical start that Webbo suggests was the original method (which nobody has used in years).

[36chambers]

whenever I see talk of reaching your potential it always makes me think of this

[tomtom]

I thought you were from the Wirral Will? 😀

[Fiend]

I feel honoured to have the starting post in this well-titled thread   

[gme]

Is it not possible to do both.

[Fiend]

Can you be a hypocrite and an arsehole and do goal-orientated climbing and soul-orientated climbing??

#lifegoals

[SA Chris]

Success isn’t guaranteed and I accept there is a point where it becomes counter productive.

Let us know when you reach that point .

[Doylo]

I remember seeing JB at the Plantation maybe around 2003. If Jonny G was a ‘gecko’ JB was a peacock combined with a show pony with beautiful flowing blonde locks puffing out his plumes and bright feathers on those high techy aretes. Seemed destined for greatness with the first ground up of Careless surely his, until snatched away by a campussing cocksure youth. He was never the same again....

[abarro81]

In terms of absolute difficulty if you are looking to climb your hardest then projecting is required.

Yeah, of course. I think that people like me (and BB) are just pointing out that it's naive to assume that maximising difficulty/grade at one facet (sport projecting) counts more as "fulfilling someone's potential" vs maximising it in another one (sport onsighting, adventure tradding etc.). Even if we narrow "potential" to be "potential to climb hard" (thereby eliminating the other aspects like developing new things, or careers etc.), I think my/BB's argument still holds up.
Example: I would view someone who's climbed 10 9as, onsighted 8c, onsighted 10 8b+s as having fulfilled their potential WAY more than someone who's climbed 1 9a, 1 9a+ and not onsighted harder than 8b... even though the second climber has climbed a harder route. Those grades might be unfair when thinking about what two climbers with equal "potential" but different focuses might achieve, but I'm sure you get the gist.

In the end, I imagine that we all just impose our views of what we value/aspire to on what it means to fulfill your potential. So for you it's a waste when someone who clearly could climb 8c doesn't because they just want to quick tick; for me it's a waste when people just project when they could be smashing out hard onsights; for others it's a waste when a hard sport onsighter doesn't go and apply that on e8s in Pembroke... We're all wasting our potential somewhere.

[dunnyg]

Some of us manage to waste our potential everywhere #allroundpunter

[tomtom]

Some of us manage to waste our potential everywhere #allroundpunter

according to my school reports I've been doing it since I was 7 :D

[dunnyg]

A lifetime of commitment to the cause. 

[shark]

Even if we narrow "potential" to be "potential to climb hard" (thereby eliminating the other aspects like developing new things, or careers etc.), I think my/BB's argument still holds up.
Example: I would view someone who's climbed 10 9as, onsighted 8c, onsighted 10 8b+s as having fulfilled their potential WAY more than someone who's climbed 1 9a, 1 9a+ and not onsighted harder than 8b... even though the second climber has climbed a harder route.

Sounds like self-justification for giving up on 9a+ 

[abarro81]

A lifetime of commitment to the cause. 

Careful... get too committed and you might just fulfil your potential

Sounds like self-justification for giving up on 9a+ 

I'd way rather o/s 8c than do 9a+. Not that either seems likely atm.

[jwi]

really hard onsights can be as much of a grind as limit redpoints. Just try 20-30 8c routes onsight. At some point you are likely to get lucky and find a combination of soft grades and pure luck. (Of course, you'd be a lot more climbing than someone who spent 20-30 days trying to redpoint a 9a+...)

[Bradders]

This discussion has come a long way from my original point, which was essentially that if you want to climb difficult gritstone boulder problems you're going to lose a few fingertips! Doing these things either matters enough to you to put up with it and accept that it's part of the game, or it doesn't.

A lot of this is swings and roundabouts; I know people who've succeeded in massive sieges who then regret not doing more volume, and I know others who've done lots at grade x and regret not really trying to climb grade y. However it's hard to argue that either person hasn't fulfilled their potential in at least one way; the only one who we can say with some certainty hasn't reached their potential is the  one who didn't even try...

[shark]

Seemed destined for greatness with the first ground up of Careless surely his, until snatched away by a campussing cocksure youth. He was never the same again....

You mean Simpson? Tragic