[Ross Barker]

The nesscliffe thing is a there and back and then an up? And that gets on the list?

I've heard from a few that a lot of the traverse links at Nesscliffe are a bit soft so may not be 8B, and from my soft cushy armchair I would agree. Needs someone to go and repeat it, but nobody local enough climbs at that level (as far as I know?), and nobody is going to drive to that instead of dozens of other "proper" 8Bs elsewhere in the country.

[Duma]

The nesscliffe thing is a there and back and then an up? And that gets on the list?

If this is true it def shouldn't count imo.

[haydn jones]

To jump in and defend nesscliffe grades I went to Nesscliffe 2 days ago and the 8B would be insane to do, it took me the best part of a session to do the font 7C finish alone which is actually harder when climbed from the traverse as you join it from indirect so is 7C+, I couldn't one of the individual moves on Northumberland Little (the traverse in reverse) and only just managed Little Northumberland. linking all these together would be seriously hard. feels comparable to doing something like staminaboys, maybe smidge easier. would be 8c/+ as a route but can't say for sure after just 1 session.

[Will Hunt]

My parents are moving into a house 45 mins from Nesscliffe soon. Obvs I'm on good form after smashing that Boss thing so I'd be happy to go and confirm that whatever this thing is is piss too.

[Bradders]

To jump in and defend nesscliffe grades I went to Nesscliffe 2 days ago and the 8B would be insane to do, it took me the best part of a session to do the font 7C finish alone which is actually harder when climbed from the traverse as you join it from indirect so is 7C+, I couldn't one of the individual moves on Northumberland Little (the traverse in reverse) and only just managed Little Northumberland. linking all these together would be seriously hard. feels comparable to doing something like staminaboys, maybe smidge easier. would be 8c/+ as a route but can't say for sure after just 1 session.

This is all fair enough, and full credit for doing a very hard bit of climbing training, but, and this is a strange thing to say about a list of how hard people have climbed, it's not only about how hard it is surely.

To me this sounds like a local's training link, which puts it more in line with something indoors than the pure hard rock climbs others go on the list for. We don't put people on the list for climbing something on a board, no matter how hard it is, and this seems the same to me. The idea that someone could be on the same roll of honour* as Sam for Cypher, for a local's there and back again then up traverse, is just weird!

*may be overstating the significance of this thread     

[spidermonkey09]

a local's training link

Tbf that is a good description of a lot of the Tor problems  I don't really have a problem with it staying on though (appropriately asterisked).

How many more people need to downgrade Keen Roof before the list does?! Or are we waiting for Will to repeat as confirmation? Obviously I know fuck all but seems like the evidence is only pointing one way.

[Ross Barker]

You do raise a very good point, this is by no means an independent "pure" line. It does beg the question, where should the line be drawn? I'm sure you could argue about some of things on the list being hard just for the sake of making it hard, some bits at the Tor and Parisellas (and that mega link on the Business boulder?)

[Doylo]

You do raise a very good point, this is by no means an independent "pure" line. It does beg the question, where should the line be drawn? I'm sure you could argue about some of things on the list being hard just for the sake of making it hard, some bits at the Tor and Parisellas (and that mega link on the Business boulder?)

Think the lines drawn when you traverse one way then reverse it.

[Stabbsy]

You do raise a very good point, this is by no means an independent "pure" line. It does beg the question, where should the line be drawn? I'm sure you could argue about some of things on the list being hard just for the sake of making it hard, some bits at the Tor and Parisellas (and that mega link on the Business boulder?)

The point at which you retrace your steps? Yes, a load of those things at the Tor and Parisellas are hard for the sake of it, but they generally don't go back over the same ground. Same with the various Business boulder links that I can think of. I know there's a few there and back things in Font, but that doesn't make it right! This doesn't take anything away from the physical achievement of that Nesscliffe thing, but surely you're only doing this sort of thing for yourself?

If retracing your steps is fair game, then I did my first 8A years ago when I did the Red Wall traverse at Trowbarrow 6 times back to back (just to be clear, I have no intention of claiming this as it's clearly not what bouldering grades are for).

[abarro81]

Think the lines drawn when you traverse one way then reverse it.

As Doylo says, I think there's a notable difference between things which make logical/aesthetic sense... and things that don't.
E.g. Staminaband-PUTP, Stamina Boys, Pilgrimage, Weeding the Lip - these might be a bit traversey or "linky"*, but they make quite a lot of sense. Start in one place, finish in another, largely non-eliminate along the way. On the other hand, powerband there-and-back, or the circular links in Tom's Roof, or this thing at Nesscliffe, might be something fun to do, but are in a whole other category of absurdity and and are very much non-problems.

P.S. I bet Dai and Klem would be horrified to find WoL compared to a there and back problem 

P.P.S. If you did want to separate out "route" traverses from "boulder" traverses, I usually think that somewhere around the 40 move mark is a good place to do it.

*on the whole the better ones are only links because people were too weak to do them first. All the short versions are really just training links for the longer lines which are the more "real" problem in most cases. E.g. Bonnie is just a training link for Hatch-Rocka-Bonnie and/or Dorsal Stream

[remus]

Interesting points all, thanks.

Initially I was leaning towards leaving things like there-and-backs on the list but Im unsure now. I think what rankles is that a lot of boulder problems are kinda weird 'lines' anyway (e.g. you're sitting in the Ben's roof knee bar, why would you logically go up keen roof from there?) If forced lines and link ups are fair game, then why is going back over the same ground not allowed?

Obviously shitty link ups aren't aesthetic but the list isn't about quality, it's about the relentless pursuit of enumerating how hard people have climbed.

[remus]

If retracing your steps is fair game, then I did my first 8A years ago when I did the Red Wall traverse at Trowbarrow 6 times back to back (just to be clear, I have no intention of claiming this as it's clearly not what bouldering grades are for).

Too late, I've already recorded it for posterity! 

[Will Hunt]

It does beg the question, where should the line be drawn?

The line is drawn around Sheffield and its environs before stretching out into the white Peak, around Raven Tor, then back to Sheffield.
Keen Roof cannot presently be downgraded because there are not sufficient stocks of tissue paper in Sheffield to dry the tears of all the people who would drop off the list.

[petejh]

If forced lines and link ups are fair game, then why is going back over the same ground not allowed?

Obviously shitty link ups aren't aesthetic but the list isn't about quality, it's about the relentless pursuit of enumerating how hard people have climbed.

They shouldn't be allowed for the same reason that climbing Raindogs, then downclimbing cleanly to the 3rd bolt shouldn't get anyone recognition for climbing 8c+.  i.e. an achievement noteworthy for its arbitrariness, in an already arbitrary pastime.
And if there and back, why not there and back and there again, (call it Sisyphus, obvs)

[Duma]

There's no way reversing stuff should count, I can't believe we're even discussing it.
One thing remus' new site does make clear is just how much more popular keen roof is than any other problem on the list (though that in itself isn't reason enough to downgrade, it is at the tor after all)

[Duma]

If forced lines and link ups are fair game, then why is going back over the same ground not allowed?

Obviously shitty link ups aren't aesthetic but the list isn't about quality, it's about the relentless pursuit of enumerating how hard people have climbed.

They shouldn't be allowed for the same reason that climbing Raindogs, then downclimbing cleanly to the 3rd bolt shouldn't get anyone recognition for climbing 8c+.  i.e. an achievement noteworthy for its arbitrariness, in an already arbitrary pastime.
And if there and back, why not there and back and there again, (call it Sisyphus, obvs)

Remus has recently logged "Warm up wall eliminate reverse" at broomsgrove so he may well be biased...

[Duma]

...the list isn't about quality, it's about the relentless pursuit of enumerating how hard people have climbed.

This isn't quite correct is it though.
There's limits - traverses don't get on the sport list for example.

[abarro81]

I think what rankles is that a lot of boulder problems are kinda weird 'lines' anyway (e.g. you're sitting in the Ben's roof knee bar, why would you logically go up keen roof from there?)

This is true of most rock climbing where sections of rock are shared. If you're half way up Rainman, why bother with the top bit rather than just pootle up the top of Rainshadow? If you're at the top of the Mecca groove, why bother with Kaabah, just loop round via Mecca ext! I view this as fundamentally different to climbing up Rainshadow and then down Rainshadow again, even if it is all totally pointless and we should be training for the Greater Ranges.

If forced lines and link ups are fair game, then why is going back over the same ground not allowed?

I could easily see an argument for removing eliminates, though I'm not sure I have a major opinion on it. Links are often different, because they often supersede the "non-link" version, and still do the "old skool" thing of pulling on at point A and trying to climb to point B.. though obviously that's not always the case, and somethimes there's variations along the way (as per Mecca ext and Kaabah for example, where A and B are the same but the bit in the middle isn't).

...the list isn't about quality, it's about the relentless pursuit of enumerating how hard people have climbed.

This isn't quite correct is it though.
There's limits - traverses don't get on the sport list for example.

Ditto School Room problems and Beastmaker campus sequences appear to have been neglected to date; both valid in the pursuit of pure difficulty, but not really rock climbing. Which is what I'd say about there-and-backs, footless versions of problems, circular problems, and the most egregious eliminates.

[Doylo]

Just training isn’t it that shizzle. Most the better stuff at Cave / Tor whilst not being pure high quality bouldering is at least logical. Plus if going up and down are genuine problems then JackPal will have a 8C+ In Cave by this time next week and we can’t have that.

[Ross Barker]

Plus if going up and down are genuine problems then JackPal will have a 8C+ In Cave by this time next week and we can’t have that.

If it makes it any easier, the same chap who did the Nesscliffe thing also put up that doing the traverse, there and back, twice, without stopping, also at 8B, but I think even that is too contrived and silly to really consider it for the list.

At least with this other thing you don't actually do the same moves again, from what I've heard the traverse climbs very differently from one direction to the next.

I also feel like I should add that my heart doesn't agree with this being on the list anyway, just trying to open a good discussion!

[remus]

Remus has recently logged "Warm up wall eliminate reverse" at broomsgrove so he may well be biased...

Rumbled 

[Footwork]

It does beg the question, where should the line be drawn?

I thought it was anything Peewee does Monkey Wedding? 8A+ mate

[remus]

It sounds like the UKB aesthetic opinion is suitably unanimous, I'll remove there-and-backs from consideration from the boulder problem list.

[User deactivated]

Just training isn’t it that shizzle. Most the better stuff at Cave / Tor whilst not being pure high quality bouldering is at least logical. Plus if going up and down are genuine problems then JackPal will have a 8C+ In Cave by this time next week and we can’t have that.

Doyle is right, I’ll go do my aerocap on rocka. Up, down, up, down etc.

[remus]

...the list isn't about quality, it's about the relentless pursuit of enumerating how hard people have climbed.

This isn't quite correct is it though.
There's limits - traverses don't get on the sport list for example.

That's more about making a (fairly arbitrary) decision about which list boulder problem traverses should go on. They should definitely be recorded somewhere. The complication is that doing a 50+ move travere is closer to the physical demands of a sport climb (i.e. you'll get pumped) but practically closer to bouldering (i.e. you're not going to tie in).