[webbo]

They are not banned from cycling events.

[Orrincoley]

Whatever happened with the WADA ban in Russia is sport? From a quick Google I can't quite understand how Russia was even at this event? Looked like team kit etc rather than competing as an "individual" or whatever..

I've heard mixed rumours that there was no anti doping at this event. But also heard from an ifsc official that there would have been... Take of that what you will. I'm optimistic that all the athletes are clean, hard working professionals.

[Wil]

Also - the multiplier system meant - I think - that Sasha was in first overall (1 point) with the Russian second (2) but when they both got bumped down to 2nd and 3rd that mean the Russian guy was then first over all... stupid system...

I don't think this is stupid at all, it's exactly how it should work because it places higher value on winning an event. The fact that Sascha was in the lead is a bit of a mirage, not least because the running order means stronger climbers go last, hence most of the field will change their ranking for the event. He's not actually in the lead until it's done.

[tomtom]

But it meant Sasha and the Russian guy swapped first and second places because the final guy did better than both of them in lead - even though the final guy finished below them both overall.

If you finish 3, 3 and 3 you get 24 points. Same is if you finish 1, 3 and 9. Or 2, 3 and 6...

Are those equivalent?

[duncan]

Mixed feelings about the event. The finals were dramatic, if not always for the right reasons. The camera work was great.

Commentating, largely solo, for hours a day is not easy but Matt Groom should be able to pronounce competitor's names accurately. 

The route setting was not as good as it sometimes is with not enough variation in style (did every lead route take an S shape, ending in a big dyno some way above the last draw? I lost count after 6), too many too easy routes (deciding an olympic place by speed on a lead route is tragic), too many bolts getting in the way, and too many donkey-marks.

The Russians did incredibly well.

[petejh]

Stayed in and watched the whole thing, thought it was pretty entertaining. On the scoring format the head-to-head 'knockout' in speed is fair enough but can see why you might want to also do it based on best time out of two runs. 6 of one half a dozen etc. If you look at Bosi - he was clearly on course to win his first speed head-to-head if he hadn't slipped. This would've put him in 4th minimum, maybe 3rd best case.
If he'd then only done one or two places better than he did in the bouldering - as many would've expected - he'd have been in with a chance of winning the event and qualifying. As it was he seemingly had a nightmare in the bouldering, which was compounded by slipping in the speed.. Tough gig.. but fine margins are what elite sport is apparently decided by.
Got to feel for Lehmann, pipped to it on time, and beaten by someone who wasn't even in the running for either the olymics or even the event win, just pride. He's probably thinking that's it.. his one and only chance of ever competing in an olympics, dust. He'll be 27 next time it comes around and there'll be swarms of young 55kg 6'2'' comp mutants on the scene with hydraulics for tendons.

Oh and if some of the Russians aren't on something I'll be amazed.. that Sergei guy could have run headlong at machine gun bullets and not felt them.

Edit - also those not liking the speed format.. isn't the list of qualifiers for the olympic finals devoid of any speed specialists who are shit at everything else (at a quick glance?). Which suggests the balance is about right, and the actual olympic speed event should be much more equal so a head-to-head an equitable format.

[Wil]

But it meant Sasha and the Russian guy swapped first and second places because the final guy did better than both of them in lead - even though the final guy finished below them both overall.

Maybe imagine how it would feel if the running order were reversed. Sasha would never have been in the lead.

It doesn't matter where Yuval came overall, he beat them both in lead. I think it's fair that they're affected proportionately differently for their relative positions, that's really the whole point of the scoring. It feels unsatisfying because of how it played out, but I don't think its unfair.

[User deactivated]

But it meant Sasha and the Russian guy swapped first and second places because the final guy did better than both of them in lead - even though the final guy finished below them both overall.

If you finish 3, 3 and 3 you get 24 points. Same is if you finish 1, 3 and 9. Or 2, 3 and 6...

Are those equivalent?

Not sure which is most impressive or if they are the equivalent to each other, it’d be personal interpretation I guess. Regardless....

3x3x3 = 27 not 24
1x3x9 = 27 again
2x3x6 = 36


Also Matt Groom was awful.

[NaoB]

And you can't have a '9' in the mix

[Duma]

But 12 can be, and nearly was in this case got in a couple of ways.

1, 3, 4. (Rubstov or a few others could realistically get this if no specialist in finals)
6, 2, 1 (Ondra, Shubert, Garnbret, Megos)
6, 1, 2. (similar list to above)
2, 1, 6. (Someone like Hojer, boulderer but worked hard on speed)

It's not unrealistic to consider a situation with a two or even 3 way tie for gold where all those concerned have won a discipline. Olympic gold on count back anyone?

[Duma]

Anyone throwing shit about the Russians care to elaborate? And do you think the same about the Israelis?

I don't really see anything to worry about -
Home event, so larger, better rested, more motivated team.
Depleted field allows more lesser known competitors through.
Strong speed really helpful in combined, Russians unsurprisingly good at this.
Rubstov was no surprise surely.
Meshkova was excellent as a junior in 2018, made a couple of semis in her first senior year, and has continued to improve.

[petejh]

No, of course there isn't any more evidence than hearsay.

But it's hardly revolutionary to harbour doubts about Russian athletes doping. When you consider Russia firmly occupies number one spot in sport's hall of infamy for its long-term illegitimate practices, and the effort its government went to cover them up. Their sporting bodies/government made their choices, they were discovered, and that's naturally led to people having suspicion of Russian athletes clean or not. That just comes with the territory of being found guilty of systematic cheating. 

Some people would doubt a dubious first ascent on way less evidence.


A v.quick google throws up this interesting stat from WADA:
Systematic doping in Russian sports has resulted in 47 Olympic and tens of world championships medals being stripped from Russian athletes—the most of any country, more than four times the number of the runner-up, and more than 30% of the global total. Russia also has the most athletes that have been caught doping at the Olympic Games, with more than 200.
Russian doping is distinct from doping in other countries because in Russia steroids and other drugs were supplied to athletes by the state. Due to widespread doping violations, including an attempt to sabotage ongoing investigations by the manipulation of computer data, in 2019 the World Anti-Doping Agency banned Russia from all major sporting events for four years.

[tomtom]

But it meant Sasha and the Russian guy swapped first and second places because the final guy did better than both of them in lead - even though the final guy finished below them both overall.

If you finish 3, 3 and 3 you get 24 points. Same is if you finish 1, 3 and 9. Or 2, 3 and 6...

Are those equivalent?

Not sure which is most impressive or if they are the equivalent to each other, it’d be personal interpretation I guess. Regardless....

3x3x3 = 27 not 24
1x3x9 = 27 again
2x3x6 = 36


Also Matt Groom was awful.

My maths oh dear... 😂

[sdm]

They could just use an additive system that still incentivises a win and higher positions. Much like Formula 1 and plenty of other sports.

Far easier for spectators and commentators to add up the scores in their heads as the event goes on without making mistakes.

[sdm]

It's not unrealistic to consider a situation with a two or even 3 way tie for gold where all those concerned have won a discipline. Olympic gold on count back anyone?

Yet another reason why the 3rd event should have been psicobloc instead of speed.

Then a tie could have been resolved with a psicobloc decider between the tied athletes.

The tension and excitement would have made great tv and it would have been a reasonably fair way of doing it as psicobloc is already a bit of a hybrid between bouldering, lead and speed.

[petejh]

Surely the decider would be to ask each climber who had the most fun.

[BRidal]

I think the tragedy in this event lay mostly in the setting and not the scoring or Russian skepticism.

I simply cannot understand why it is impossible to set hard routes so that nobody tops it and time is much less likely to be a factor. It's a combined event, 2 out of the 3 disciplines should not be speed, ever. I feel awful for Sasha and Stasa, both of which lost their Olympic ticket because another person, not even the person they were contending with, climbed the route too fast or too slow, that's bollocks.
It was the same in the qualification round for the men, and to really twist the knife it also happened to Sasha in the Toulouse finals, his other shot at qualification.
It also happened on the men's route at pan ams, failing to split Sean Bailey and Collin Duffy, it is a recurring theme.
Sure tops are exciting for the crowd, but at a qualification event the fairness of competition should come first every time.
There were issues in the boulder setting too, particularly the womens, though it still more or less allowed the best athletes to shine through.

[gme]

I must be in a minority that like the speed despite thinking it was a shit idea at the start.
The thing that is wrong is that there are no individual medals which I think will be sorted in the future.
The decathlon and heptathon are some of my favourite events at the olympics they don’t detract from the individual events.

I would bet most of the competitors going to the olympics will still enter the combined as well as there favourite individual events.

[tomtom]

I quite like the speed too Duma. It’s one part that works well on the TV. And I don’t mind the knockout part of it either...

But think the scoring system is wack when the top speed climber (men’s - and women’s) qualifies for the final - then gets zero tops in Bouldering and barely gets off the ground in lead.

If nothing else that didn’t help the ‘spectacle’ of the event...

I guess this partly boils down to the three events being forced together for the olympics... there seems to be much more overlap between Boulder and Lead than there is with speed and anything else. Maybe that’s at the heart of the problem.

Maybe we could modern-pentathlon zizz it up and have them ride on horses between the events - or try and shoot some targets immediately after the lead climb when they’re pumped to shit 😂

[petejh]

Because the speed specialists have been such a visible wildcard element during the qualification comps I think what people haven't mentioned (or possibly realised) is that there won't be any speed specialists in the olympic finals.
Nearly all have been whittled away during the olympic qualification comps, and the small number of speed specialists who made it to the olympics will be whittled away during the olympic qualification round.

The only way this won't happen is if one of the speed specialists massively ups their boulder or lead ability in the next 6 months. Unlikely.

Therefore that's going to change the dynamic in the olympic final because there isn't likely to be a speed specialist hoovering up the guaranteed speed win. There's now a good chance a climber who wins either the bouldering or lead may also take the win or 2nd in the speed. During the qualifying comps this probably wouldn't happen and we saw how it skewed the field. So for good boulderers/lead climbers - which all finalists will be - being decent at speed will be a big advantage. Possibly more to gain from improving at speed than at the other disciplines given how closely matched all the finalists are likely to be in bouldering and lead.

Could have done with some pre-qualifying, qualifying comps to whittle away the speed specialists, before whittling away the rest in qualifying, until there were none left to be whittled away during the qualifying round of the olympic finals..

[Oldmanmatt]

I quite like the speed too Duma. It’s one part that works well on the TV. And I don’t mind the knockout part of it either...

But think the scoring system is wack when the top speed climber (men’s - and women’s) qualifies for the final - then gets zero tops in Bouldering and barely gets off the ground in lead.

If nothing else that didn’t help the ‘spectacle’ of the event...

I guess this partly boils down to the three events being forced together for the olympics... there seems to be much more overlap between Boulder and Lead than there is with speed and anything else. Maybe that’s at the heart of the problem.

Maybe we could modern-pentathlon zizz it up and have them ride on horses between the events - or try and shoot some targets immediately after the lead climb when they’re pumped to shit 😂

Nah.
Clip bolts with an 8mtr clip stick, wearing belay glasses and a two mile run back to the car to retrieve the right shoe they left under the back seat. Combined with style marks for the “Verdon-the-fuckinf-ants-are-in-my-fucking-shorts” dance recital.

Should be specific events.

[Duma]

Because the speed specialists have been such a visible wildcard element during the qualification comps I think what people haven't mentioned (or possibly realised) is that there won't be any speed specialists in the olympic finals.
Nearly all have been whittled away during the olympic qualification comps, and the small number of speed specialists who made it to the olympics will be whittled away during the olympic qualification round.

The only way this won't happen is if one of the speed specialists massively ups their boulder or lead ability in the next 6 months
Unlikley

I think this wrong.
1)There are a few speed specialists in the Olympics
2) one of these will probably win the speed discipline in olympic qualification.
3) the scoring makes it very unlikely that the winner of a discipline won't progress to the final. Even last place (20th) in the other 2 disciplines would have been good enough in the Europeans for example. And the French speed brothers are both decent boulderers I believe.

[bigironhorse]

Because the speed specialists have been such a visible wildcard element during the qualification comps I think what people haven't mentioned (or possibly realised) is that there won't be any speed specialists in the olympic finals.
Nearly all have been whittled away during the olympic qualification comps, and the small number of speed specialists who made it to the olympics will be whittled away during the olympic qualification round.

The only way this won't happen is if one of the speed specialists massively ups their boulder or lead ability in the next 6 months
Unlikley

I think this wrong.
1)There are a few speed specialists in the Olympics
2) one of these will probably win the speed discipline in olympic qualification.
3) the scoring makes it very unlikely that the winner of a discipline won't progress to the final. Even last place (20th) in the other 2 disciplines would have been good enough in the Europeans for example. And the French speed brothers are both decent boulderers I believe.

Definietly, I think it is extremely likely that there will be a speed climber in the final. Mickael Mawem is a boulder specialist who is also good at speed, could be a good shout for the win with that combo if he could win one of the two. It's his brother Bassa who is the speed specialist.

[teestub]

Barring injury, illness or ill luck I find it hard look past Tomoa for the men’s gold considering his not-shit speed skills.

[bigironhorse]

Barring injury, illness or ill luck I find it hard look past Tomoa for the men’s gold considering his not-shit speed skills.

Yeah you are right there. I didn't watch the recent Japanese comp but if he is still on the same form as last year he will be unstoppable!