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Topic slit Hubble with kneepad (Read 51317 times)

spidermonkey09

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#25 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 15, 2020, 09:00:00 pm

Always good to know the quality of the gold you're trading  ;) - and I think the significance of any ascent works that way. I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

 :lol: is that a joke?! You don't see anyone climbing in Spain now who isn't rubbered up like the gimp in Pulp Fiction.

I would be absolutely astonished if he hadn't done it with a pad, they are a standard bit of climbing equipment at the Tor I'd have thought.

Fair enough if you personally wouldn't claim it but you have to accept you're the soldier out of step on that one I think.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 09:13:17 pm by spidermonkey09 »

shark

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#26 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 15, 2020, 10:10:00 pm
Always good to know the quality of the gold you're trading  ;) - and I think the significance of any ascent works that way. I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

 :lol: is that a joke?! You don't see anyone climbing in Spain now who isn't rubbered up like the gimp in Pulp Fiction.

I would be absolutely astonished if he hadn't done it with a pad, they are a standard bit of climbing equipment at the Tor I'd have thought.

Fair enough if you personally wouldn't claim it but you have to accept you're the soldier out of step on that one I think.

Of course it’s not a joke. Fuck Spain and their identikit routes. Mat asked me about what I thought about using a kneepad on Hubble? Haha. I said it would be a shame. I told him I thought Sean McColl was a dick on the Mammut repeating the classics whining afterwards that he didn’t have the right type of kneepad. I don’t know why he bothered asking as he went and strapped his pad on anyway. So much for respecting the history of the route. Anyway the next generation of influencers have decided so it’s hunky dory now. Like using a kneepad on Mecca is acceptable now or Bens Roof for that matter before someone jumps down my gullet or the happy people claiming the Green Traverse without dropping down to the crimps. Like I said it’s a shame but now it’s the way to do it.

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#27 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 15, 2020, 10:16:48 pm
Always good to know the quality of the gold you're trading  ;) - and I think the significance of any ascent works that way. I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

 :lol: is that a joke?! You don't see anyone climbing in Spain now who isn't rubbered up like the gimp in Pulp Fiction.

I would be absolutely astonished if he hadn't done it with a pad, they are a standard bit of climbing equipment at the Tor I'd have thought.

Fair enough if you personally wouldn't claim it but you have to accept you're the soldier out of step on that one I think.

Of course it’s not a joke. Fuck Spain and their identikit routes. Mat asked me about what I thought about using a kneepad on Hubble? Haha. I said it would be a shame. I told him I thought Sean McColl was a dick on the Mammut repeating the classics whining afterwards that he didn’t have the right type of kneepad. I don’t know why he bothered asking as he went and strapped his pad on anyway. So much for respecting the history of the route. Anyway the next generation of influencers have decided so it’s hunky dory now. Like using a kneepad on Mecca is acceptable now or Bens Roof for that matter before someone jumps down my gullet or the happy people claiming the Green Traverse without dropping down to the crimps. Like I said it’s a shame but now it’s the way to do it.

I really don't understand this argument. How is it not respecting the history of the route? And does that even acyially matter? Its just rock climbing! Phoenix in yosemite first done pre cams. Does that mean every ascent with cams gets flamed? Presumably you're climbing every route that was bolted in the 80s wearing shit floppy shoes?

shark

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#28 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 15, 2020, 10:20:43 pm
It’s not an argument it’s a fait accompli

Andy F

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#29 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 15, 2020, 11:00:59 pm
This may not be fashionable, but the way Matt has been open and honest about his using the pad and the slight advantage it may have given him, is refreshing.

spidermonkey09

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#30 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 15, 2020, 11:04:32 pm
Seems a bizarre point of view to take to me, but fair enough if you hold it. Although I also thought Sean McColl was a dick on that video, not because of the kneepad, just in general. 

I think it's possible to think its a shame without thinking it disrespects the routes history though. Like Ged I don't really understand that.

Off topic, but Spanish/european routes have loads of history, it's just different to ours (and in Spanish so we don't know about it.) talking to locals about the development of rodellar or oliana was fascinating. We don't have a monopoly on climbing history in the UK. British climbing exceptionalism perhaps?

36chambers

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#31 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 15, 2020, 11:04:44 pm
Of course it’s not a joke. Fuck Spain and their identikit routes. Mat asked me about what I thought about using a kneepad on Hubble? Haha. I said it would be a shame. I told him I thought Sean McColl was a dick on the Mammut repeating the classics whining afterwards that he didn’t have the right type of kneepad. I don’t know why he bothered asking as he went and strapped his pad on anyway. So much for respecting the history of the route. Anyway the next generation of influencers have decided so it’s hunky dory now. Like using a kneepad on Mecca is acceptable now or Bens Roof for that matter before someone jumps down my gullet or the happy people claiming the Green Traverse without dropping down to the crimps. Like I said it’s a shame but now it’s the way to do it.

Kudos to Mat for sticking it to the man.

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#32 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 06:49:27 am
Of course it’s not a joke. Fuck Spain and their identikit routes. Mat asked me about what I thought about using a kneepad on Hubble? Haha. I said it would be a shame. I told him I thought Sean McColl was a dick on the Mammut repeating the classics whining afterwards that he didn’t have the right type of kneepad. I don’t know why he bothered asking as he went and strapped his pad on anyway. So much for respecting the history of the route. Anyway the next generation of influencers have decided so it’s hunky dory now. Like using a kneepad on Mecca is acceptable now or Bens Roof for that matter before someone jumps down my gullet or the happy people claiming the Green Traverse without dropping down to the crimps. Like I said it’s a shame but now it’s the way to do it.

It’s not an argument it’s a fait accompli
With a side of judgement and you're trying to argue Dave's point that he shouldn't take the route. 

That's like the old tradsters bi^&*ing about the youngsters.  Except you're the old sportster bi^&*ing. 

We deal with the technology and circumstance that we have, and if we are being forthright then we disclose everything and go with it.  He's not hiding anything.  He's being honest and that's good enough for me. 

shark

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#33 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 08:28:04 am
With a side of judgement and you're trying to argue Dave's point that he shouldn't take the route.

Dave didn’t say that. What he said was:

Quote
I just don't think I'd claim an ascent using a pad,

That’s not the same as saying the ascent is not legitimate and to be clear I’m not say it wasn’t legitimate. Peoples personal ethics vary. The community is ok with it too.

Quote
We deal with the technology and circumstance that we have, and if we are being forthright then we disclose everything and go with it.  He's not hiding anything.  He's being honest and that's good enough for me. 

I get all that. It’s a shame a knee bar was discovered. People saying it’s marginal is neither here nor there as marginal assistance makes a difference. It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it. The temptation was too great. I get that too. They made their choices. The precedent has now been set. Another chapter in the route’s history.

teestub

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#34 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 08:51:11 am
This could only be better if it was Barrows arguing against the use of a knee bar 😂

Will Hunt

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#35 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 08:51:26 am
#biggradesforbadbeta
I honestly don't know how anybody can maintain that logic and not say the same thing about anybody climbing a Puttrell route in rock shoes. Or somebody climbing one of the old ice routes on the Ben without cutting steps. Or doing classic VSs at Stanage with cams. Or even using a fingerboard to train for climbing.

Whenever somebody makes a technological leap forward in climbing there are inevitably those who try and order back the tide. We've had exactly the same arguments about cams, chalk, training, turning old short solos into highballs etc etc. It's pointless. The technology always wins and in 10 years people will be amazed that anybody even questioned it. The people who reap the biggest rewards are the early adopters.

tomtom

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#36 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 08:51:45 am
I’d just like to fact-check(tm) you Shark.

Green Traverse without dropping to the crimps is Rons Reach non?

:p

Doylo

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#37 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 08:52:26 am
The only saving grace is that Barrow’s 6 metre limb won’t fit under there.

Nibile

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#38 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 09:01:14 am
The first gaston is horrible!!! I've always thought it was a good flake!

abarro81

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#39 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 09:13:23 am
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it.
As a counterpoint, I think it would have been moronic, highly unimpressive, regressive, and involved them climbing a no star eliminate piece of shit (instead of a 1 star non-eliminate ;) ).

Fuck Spain and their identikit routes.
Says the man who likes to climb at Malham, home of the "I can't even work out where the route starts 'cos they all look the same"  :lol:

I think it's possible to think its a shame without thinking it disrespects the routes history though.
+1. As a man who's found a lot of knees on things in the UK, some of them are great - they make the route/problem better. Some are "who cares". Some are a shame - they make the route/problem worse, or even essentially defunct. Generally the ones that I think are a shame are the very morpho ones, (where it makes it much easier but only if you have a long/short-enough shin) or the ones that make a problem defunct (e.g. Sparks at Pantymwyn bascially doesn't exist as a problem if you use your brain and your knee in conjunction). As a man whose ascent of Director's Cut was apparently "an insult to Jamie Cassidy" I say fuck climbing eliminates, I didn't get into rock climbing to climb eliminates. Especially not technique eliminates. That's the lowest of the low. And if that means big changes then suck it up. Or should we ban anasazi heels from all problems climbed without them on the FA? Or, as Ged said, no cams on things originally done pre-cams? What about routes climbed after rubber pads were being used elsewhere but less popular in the UK? Or ones climbed after pads got popular but where the FA missed a knee? What about when neoprene was used but rubber not so much? Should I bust out my old knee support and find an old pair of shoes for those ones? I guess if someone is into climbing eliminates then smash on, but it holds zero inspiration to me. Want an unchanging benchmark of power? Go campusing.

Off topic, but Spanish/european routes have loads of history, it's just different to ours [...] We don't have a monopoly on climbing history in the UK. British climbing exceptionalism perhaps?
Quite.

The only saving grace is that Barrow’s 6 metre limb won’t fit under there.
And my fingers are always too broken to pull on

remus

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#40 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 09:38:31 am
It would have been an impressive statement and shown ethical leadership if Mat and Buster with that knowledge had not used it. The temptation was too great. I get that too. They made their choices. The precedent has now been set. Another chapter in the route’s history.

Personally I find this reasoning hard to empathise with. What I enjoy in climbing is climbing hard (for me) things well (i.e. using the best sequence possible). While I can certainly marvel at the difficulty of some desperate sequence used by the FA while I float past it on knee bars, I have very little interest in trying to climb an eliminate.

Going back to the green traverse example, I guess it has something to do with whether 'green traverse' refers to a line or a specific set of moves. While I acknowledge there's the need for some rules every now and then (e.g. footblock is out) a version of climbing where hubble is defined as precisely the same set as moves as Ben did, with precisely the same kit, is uninteresting to me. I want to climb lines, not moves.

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#41 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 09:41:13 am
#biggradesforbadbeta
I honestly don't know how anybody can maintain that logic and not say the same thing about anybody climbing a Puttrell route in rock shoes. Or somebody climbing one of the old ice routes on the Ben without cutting steps. Or doing classic VSs at Stanage with cams. Or even using a fingerboard to train for climbing.
Something to do with the climbing statute of limitations? Puttrell routes are 100+ years old, so anything is fair game. I understand the limit for the Peak has been set at 32 years, Hubble is only 30 years young so you can't use knee pads until 2022 - back around, etc.. West Side Story is 35 years old - that's why there was a flood of ascents with pads, step ladders, etc. a few years back. All such ascents prior to 2017 were null and void.

Maybe the BMC need to pull together the BMC RED (Regional Ethics Database) so that you can put in a crag/route and check what's "in" - how many pads, acceptable shoe models, are heels/knees allowed, alternate sequences that have been approved by the crag guardians, etc.. Woe betide anyone who posts on Instagram without checking the approvals list to ensure their ascent is valid.

36chambers

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#42 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 09:53:09 am
As an Almscliff devotee I'd just like to say God bless eliminates.

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#43 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 09:55:14 am
To be fair to dave if he could find some lasers in a skip i'm pretty sure he would wear them. He also avoids the good foot holds in the middle of powerband because they didn't use ot be there.  obviously hes not got a bouldering mat and hes even riding a moterbike to the crag now. We should all be thankful someone is keeping the golden age alive :thumbsup:


tomtom

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#44 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 10:12:57 am
Maybe the BMC need to pull together the BMC RED (Regional Ethics Database) so that you can put in a crag/route and check what's "in" - how many pads, acceptable shoe models, are heels/knees allowed, alternate sequences that have been approved by the crag guardians, etc.. Woe betide anyone who posts on Instagram without checking the approvals list to ensure their ascent is valid.

Great idea. And rather than having an equitable bottom up approach - whereby the 'rules' for a problem are determined by online discussion and voting, we should have them decreed by a small cabal of aging, melancholic yet bitter (mostly former) climbers. Perfect for the BMC :D

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#45 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 10:24:58 am
Using a pad is fine as long as you don't try and pretend it is somehow the same grade (yes it can stay the same grade e.g. move from hard or top-end 9a to soft or low-end 9a). Although at much lower grade levels, I remember people in the cave still trying to claim anywhere between 7C+ and 8A+ for Trigger Cut when they had their knee in for every move apart from the last one! Obviously nobody really cares at the lower grades way below the cutting edge but you are just lying to yourself!

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#46 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 10:46:40 am
It is very hard to imagine how someone climbing onsight will know on which routes knee pads are allowed... I vote for a blanket downgrade on every route where kneepads help.

I overheard a chat between one of the BTR guys and a younger climber at the new sector in Bielsa. The younger climber said that she had done one of his old routes, but wasn't sure if she could take 7c+ for it as she had a kneepad, to which the BTR guy replied: "I used a home-made kneepad at the time, not everyone was a moron in the 90s, you know".

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#47 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 10:54:42 am
"I used a home-made kneepad at the time, not everyone was a moron in the 90s, you know".

 :lol: This quote is awesome

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#48 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 10:56:45 am
Obviously nobody really cares at the lower grades way below the cutting edge

8c+ or 9a isn't cutting edge now though, so why has it become a big deal that there's new beta in the form of a knee bar?

Times changes, new kit is invented, people find new beta. As such the grade and the climb itself changes. For historical value a climb could be repeated in the original fashion, but its an eliminate at this point and all your doing is handicapping yourself for either the sake of ego or for a personal challenge (which is okay)

New beta is like getting ageing, it'll happen and no one can stop it.

jwi

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#49 Re: Topic slit Hubble with kneepad
October 16, 2020, 10:59:16 am
Obviously nobody really cares at the lower grades way below the cutting edge

8c+ or 9a isn't cutting edge now though

9a+ is not cutting edge anymore either, doing a 9a+ will not get you into the news section of Grimper unless you are a woman, a child, or a Frenchman.

 

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