First 7a in the Dolomites in the 60s. *off topic*
VIII+ = 7a?
I think we should just drop it now as climbing has moved on an his problems are not the highest graded things in the country any more. To my knowledge no one is going to put any effort into his hard stuff as its pretty shit so just leave them in the history books at the grade he gave them and they will become irrelevant when the grades have moved on another notch in 10 years. Only if he had stolen some future 4* classic lines from the next gen would it matter.
Good split Shark it was sullying Aidens thread.
I think we should just drop it now as climbing has moved on an his problems are not the highest graded things in the country any more.
Quote from: bigironhorse on September 29, 2020, 09:34:48 amVIII+ = 7a? https://www.guidedolomiti.com/en/rock-climbing-grades/
It will never be proven though so a total waste of time. John says he did them, some dont believe him but dont have evidence to prove other wise so we have to go with John.
Gav, I think this is a bit of a cop out argument. If he did some of the stuff he's claimed then he was 20 years ahead of everyone else in the UK in terms of the stuff he was putting up and one of the best climbers in the world at the time. As much as anything in climbing 'matters', it'd be nice if the historical record here was somewhat accurate. It does a disservice to everyone else who was playing fairly.Regarding proof, obviously no one other than John can say for sure, but the balance of evidence seems pretty strongly in favour of him having not done the harder lines he has claimed. Dan V has put plenty of effort in to trying to work out where these lines go, how they're climbed etc. (including trips to the crag with the man himself) and my interpretation of it all is that the lines claimed essentially don't exist. To use shadowplay as an example, it's stretching credibility to believe he spent tens of sessions on it but couldn't offer anything in the way of a sequence and that solid 8B+ climbers can't even pull on to the supposed holds.
as we cant prove he didnt we have to accept his word and move on. Its a waste of time arguing and boring.
Judging by John Kettles comment the general opinion out there is in his favour.
....I have no idea of whether he did them or not but as we cant prove he didnt we have to accept his word and move on. Its a waste of time arguing and boring.
What's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view?
Quote from: Bonjoy on September 29, 2020, 03:20:43 pmWhat's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view? I don't think we need to say 'probably false', we can state that an ascent was recorded but as the best climbers today have been unable to find any holds it is not widely believed to have happened.
Quote from: Johnny Brown on September 29, 2020, 03:33:38 pmQuote from: Bonjoy on September 29, 2020, 03:20:43 pmWhat's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view? I don't think we need to say 'probably false', we can state that an ascent was recorded but as the best climbers today have been unable to find any holds it is not widely believed to have happened.Any choice of non-definitive language will do. Thanks Moo. I knew I could count on you.