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G again, first of grade etc (Read 16996 times)

Doylo

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#25 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 28, 2020, 09:35:06 pm
Was Psycho Roof, Colorado. First 7a in the Dolomites in the 60s. *off topic*

Nibile

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#26 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 09:21:41 am
First 7a in the Dolomites in the 60s. *off topic*
I think it could be Pumprisse, '77 ruote by Reinhard Karl, VIII+ 7a.

bigironhorse

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#27 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 09:34:48 am
VIII+ = 7a?  :lol:

cheque

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#28 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 09:45:10 am
Good article about first routes of the grade here. Reckons Reinhold Messner’s Pilastro do Mezzo was the first 7a in 1968.

SA Chris

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#29 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 10:04:46 am
Great article thanks.

Nibile

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gme

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#31 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 12:02:03 pm
Good split Shark it was sullying Aidens thread.

Bradders

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#32 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 12:08:26 pm
I think we should just drop it now as climbing has moved on an his problems are not the highest graded things in the country any more.

To my knowledge no one is going to put any effort into his hard stuff as its pretty shit so just leave them in the history books at the grade he gave them and they will become irrelevant when the grades have moved on another notch in 10 years. Only if he had stolen some future 4* classic lines from the next gen would it matter.

Problem I have with it is that it takes away from the people like Aidan coming through who are genuinely good enough for these hard things. For example John K you seem more worried about denying Gaskins his claim in the history books for the Karma of Trees sitter, whereas I'm more worried that doing that denies Aidan his place; which arguably is much, much more deserved and for which definitive proof and justification exists.

Gaskins does also have his name, currently, against some big lines. Moment of Clarity for one. Various things in Lancs quarries I think as well.

lagerstarfish

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#33 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 12:10:27 pm
Good split Shark it was sullying Aidens thread.

Yes

Ru

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#34 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 12:38:31 pm
I think we should just drop it now as climbing has moved on an his problems are not the highest graded things in the country any more.

But they’re still the hardest bits of claimed climbing, whatever grade was first given to them. It’s pretty hard to contextualise any top end bouldering without forming a view on whether you think his hardest problems have actually been climbed.

gme

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#35 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 12:53:12 pm
It will never be proven though so a total waste of time. John says he did them, some dont believe him but dont have evidence to prove other wise so we have to go with John.

I have never even seen any of the problems in the flesh so cant comment about them but from what i hear they are mostly shit so not likely anyone will even try them. just leave them to fade into the history books at the grade he gave them unless they get repeated. Now Aiden has done something graded harder we can move on.

So we have a choice either leave them all in at the grades suggested and agree he did them or write them out of the history books which means we are saying he lied. I dont think doing the later would be right so we have to accept the former and move on.

The list someone added above is a nice read but could be said full of errors.

In line with recent upgrades and omissions.

1st 8a+ Requiem - dumbarton
1st 8c+ Liquid ambar
1st 9a hubble
1st 9b Akira or if you really dont want that one chillam balam.

bigironhorse

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#36 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 01:56:23 pm
VIII+ = 7a?  :lol:
https://www.guidedolomiti.com/en/rock-climbing-grades/

Fair. Grades vary a lot by area I guess, I think in my locale grade VIII's are ~7a and VIII+'s are ~7a+. Conversly I dont think many/any IX+'s are considered 8a.

Bonjoy

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#37 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 02:08:05 pm
It will never be proven though so a total waste of time. John says he did them, some dont believe him but dont have evidence to prove other wise so we have to go with John.

You're right that all this doesn't matter... Because I climbed the world's first 10a route and 9B last week!
Sorry, no vid, I accidentally reversed the camera on my phone (twice, would you believe!), so it's just a video of the inside of my shoe and some shouting. Seriously, I'm the world's best climber and nothing you or anyone else does or says can prove otherwise.


Or something like that.


You get my point right...

gme

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#38 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 02:33:02 pm
That really does not prove he didn't do it though.

And to be fair to john it was not common place to have a camera with you then.

I think now a days you should be able to ask for proof and i dont think there has been any cases recently.

remus

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#39 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 02:38:09 pm
Gav, I think this is a bit of a cop out argument. If he did some of the stuff he's claimed then he was 20 years ahead of everyone else in the UK in terms of the stuff he was putting up and one of the best climbers in the world at the time. As much as anything in climbing 'matters', it'd be nice if the historical record here was somewhat accurate. It does a disservice to everyone else who was playing fairly.

Regarding proof, obviously no one other than John can say for sure, but the balance of evidence seems pretty strongly in favour of him having not done the harder lines he has claimed. Dan V has put plenty of effort in to trying to work out where these lines go, how they're climbed etc. (including trips to the crag with the man himself) and my interpretation of it all is that the lines claimed essentially don't exist. To use shadowplay as an example, it's stretching credibility to believe he spent tens of sessions on it but couldn't offer anything in the way of a sequence and that solid 8B+ climbers can't even pull on to the supposed holds.

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#40 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 02:46:08 pm
The first 9b in the world was Jumbo Love at Clark Mountain. There is simply not enough proof for any preceding accent of 9b, and Chilam Balam is not really 9b anyway (according to every single endurance specialist that has repeated the route).

Hubble is 9a according to people who have not actually climbed it, and 8c+ to those who have done it, no?

gme

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#41 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 03:01:08 pm
Gav, I think this is a bit of a cop out argument. If he did some of the stuff he's claimed then he was 20 years ahead of everyone else in the UK in terms of the stuff he was putting up and one of the best climbers in the world at the time. As much as anything in climbing 'matters', it'd be nice if the historical record here was somewhat accurate. It does a disservice to everyone else who was playing fairly.

Regarding proof, obviously no one other than John can say for sure, but the balance of evidence seems pretty strongly in favour of him having not done the harder lines he has claimed. Dan V has put plenty of effort in to trying to work out where these lines go, how they're climbed etc. (including trips to the crag with the man himself) and my interpretation of it all is that the lines claimed essentially don't exist. To use shadowplay as an example, it's stretching credibility to believe he spent tens of sessions on it but couldn't offer anything in the way of a sequence and that solid 8B+ climbers can't even pull on to the supposed holds.

I am not disagreeing with you and have heard it over and over again. I have no idea of whether he did them or not but as we cant prove he didnt we have to accept his word and move on. Its a waste of time arguing and boring.

Judging by John Kettles comment the general opinion out there is in his favour. Its a shame there is not more clarity but thats where we find ourselves.

Bonjoy

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#42 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 03:12:45 pm
 
Quote
It will never be proven though so a total waste of time. John says he did them, some dont believe him but dont have evidence to prove other wise so we have to go with John.

GME - The point I was making is that your statement, quoted above, ignores the balance of probability argument. You're saying that because the matter can't be conclusively proved John's words have to be taken as historical fact. By that logic, so should mine. Ergo I'm the greatest climber who ever lived.
Clearly the latter is preposterous. Not because you can prove I'm lying, obviously you can't. But you can make an educated guess based on the evidence and draw a conclusion that you are 99.999% certain I didn't climb 9B. Obviously it's not as clear cut as that with JG but by your argument that's irrelevant - you're saying you must take people's word for it, end of.

Will Hunt

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#43 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 03:15:45 pm
as we cant prove he didnt we have to accept his word and move on. Its a waste of time arguing and boring.


Errmm. No. You can easily come to a fair conclusion based on the balance of the evidence which, in this case, is plentiful and compelling. If you haven't cared to acquaint yourself with that evidence then that's your prerogative.
I, for instance, did both that new Gresh E10 AND the Malham 8c+. You can't prove I didn't so you'll have to accept my word and move on.

Judging by John Kettles comment the general opinion out there is in his favour.

I don't think that's true. I don't think you'd be able to find many people who have followed the whole thing who still think that G did everything he said he did. Nobody is writing off all of it, but it seems fairly clear that he didn't do all he claimed.

Bonjoy

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#44 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 03:20:43 pm

....I have no idea of whether he did them or not but as we cant prove he didnt we have to accept his word and move on. Its a waste of time arguing and boring.

I agree it's boring, I don't agree that we have to accept any and every claim made (however large and important), disregarding any evidence to the contrary, just because the matter is unprovable. What's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view?

gme

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#45 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 03:31:24 pm
I am fully up to speed with the whole thing, have seen most of the discussions, heard most of the arguments, watched sharks video, read Johns comments when challenged (which was really my main argument to JK suggesting John knows nothing about these doubts) , was around at the time, i have even climbed with him. However the fact stands we cant prove he didn't do the things he said.

Either we forget it and move on or erase everything he did that is not satisfactorily witnessed from the books. It just gets tedious going round and round.




Johnny Brown

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#46 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 03:33:38 pm
What's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view?

I don't think we need to say 'probably false', we can state that an ascent was recorded but as the best climbers today have been unable to find any holds it is not widely believed to have happened.

Moo

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#47 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 03:44:17 pm
I for one totally believe all of Bonjoys ascents and think this witch hunt must stop.

Anyone who knows Bonjoy in real life, as I do, will tell you that he's a sound guy with a solid character and I don't believe he'd be able to lie to a goose.

 

Bonjoy

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#48 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 03:51:36 pm
What's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view?

I don't think we need to say 'probably false', we can state that an ascent was recorded but as the best climbers today have been unable to find any holds it is not widely believed to have happened.
Any choice of non-definitive language will do.


Thanks Moo. I knew I could count on you.

gme

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#49 Re: G again, first of grade etc
September 29, 2020, 03:57:39 pm
What's wrong with recording ascents for instances as 'probably false' if that reflects the prevailing non-definitive view?

I don't think we need to say 'probably false', we can state that an ascent was recorded but as the best climbers today have been unable to find any holds it is not widely believed to have happened.
Any choice of non-definitive language will do.


Thanks Moo. I knew I could count on you.

Or just dont put them in. Guidebook writers can do what they want i guess its there guide.

 

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