[Mr_Cus]

So the lamping sessions are beginning and it can be pretty hard to find particular boulders at night, especially if not visited before. Is there a decent (free?) app these days with most boulders coordinates on?  I'm aware of the ukc one (assuming it has locations) but I don't want another guidebook, just the coordinates.

I was more hoping to create or get access to some sort of spreadsheet or something with boulder and location.
E.g. I'd like to go to Ape drape at Froggatt and a few other bits around there but I've never bothered to find it in the day and at night I'm thinking this could be tricky.

Its also so I can easily text the wife which boulder I'm heading to incase of accidents etc.


Cheers

[dunnyg]

If you have a guide and google earth it  an be easy to drop pins on boulders, not aware of any resources though.

[Oldmanmatt]

I just take the grid ref from the guidebook, put it into the UK map app (iPhone) and walk to it. Seems to work for Bovey woods etc.
https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/uk-map/id365745482

[Mr_Cus]

Yeah I thought this might be the way but I figured someone else may have already done a lot of the leg work on this.  I believe you can share a map of pins in Google maps too.

Anyone done this already?

[SA Chris]

All seems a bit 2010 now, but there's this

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/board,34.0.html

[Mr_Cus]

All seems a bit 2010 now, but there's this

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/board,34.0.html

This seems like the sort of thing I'm after.  Good to Know I'm 10years out of date with this! Trouble is I'm getting 404 - attachment not found.

Anyone got a link that works?

[Coops_13]

There's a relatively new app in the US called 'Climbing Pins': https://apps.apple.com/us/app/climbing-pins/id1360866980 that lets users add them. Not my favourite UI I've come across but it works. Currently loaded with boulders from the US, Font, Swizzy and SA. Needs some keen UK folk to add boulders for it to work though...

[SA Chris]

All seems a bit 2010 now, but there's this

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/board,34.0.html

This seems like the sort of thing I'm after.  Good to Know I'm 10years out of date with this! Trouble is I'm getting 404 - attachment not found.

Anyone got a link that works?

It may have not survived site updates.

[Bonjoy]

A simple solution for future guides would be to use the what3words code within a boulder description. Much easier to remember and input than traditional coordinates, and accurate to 3m.

[BrutusTheBear]

I just take the grid ref from the guidebook, put it into the UK map app (iPhone) and walk to it. Seems to work for Bovey woods etc.
https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/uk-map/id365745482

I have a gpx. file that might save you a lot of work for Bovey woods!

[tomtom]

A simple solution for future guides would be to use the what3words code within a boulder description. Much easier to remember and input than traditional coordinates, and accurate to 3m.

There’s a fairly robust set of arguments for not using w3w recently. Mostly along the lines of it being opaque in operation and their quite aggressive marketing.

I think MRT’s were in favour but some are now against due to false locations given when a letter or two in a word was Mis communicated on the phone. The lack of transparency in how their algorithm works makes it harder for them to then figure out where someone may be.

[turnipturned]

27 crags has this feature. However, not sure of coverage and sometimes a bit inaccurate.

However, I have had some success, when I was in Gothenburg on a conference, I had no guide, I used 27crags and Uber/public transport, it was flipping great. Even for boulders in the middle of a wood.

[Bonjoy]

Tomtom - I can see the second point being a reason to be cautious about w3w use in an emergency situation. I think in the context of a climbing guide this would be a non risk -  both low probability and low consequence.
On the first point either the system gains traction or it doesn't. Guidebooks using it will have no bearing on this.

[remus]

What TTT said about what3words. Would seem a shame to build up a big library of boulder locations and then be reliant on a third party to actually be able to convert those in to usable co-ordinates.

I think google came up with a similar system called plus codes, but with the key difference that the algorithm is open https://plus.codes and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Location_Code for the details. It also has some nice properties, like locations that are physically close together having similar plus codes and being able to shorten the code depending on how much accuracy you want.

Full details of various implementations available here https://github.com/google/open-location-code

[sxrxg]

Isn't part of the fun of climbing wading around in waist high bracken falling in holes trying to find a bloc when visiting a new venue?

Also I think finding blocs is a skill that you learn over time. You look for the little things, the depression in the ground where a craglet maybe hiding a small sheep track through the bushes leading seemingly to nowhere. I think just going straight there using a GPS would take away some of fun, maybe I am odd though and people just see getting to the blocs as a waste of time, for me that is already part of my day out. If I want to just climb there are plenty of venues where it would be impossible for even people with the worst sense of direction could get lost and I would just pick these when i am not looking for an adventure.

Based on the above what is wrong with Latitude and Longitude or/and OS GB grid references, both should get you within 100m of any bloc and can be used with many mapping apps or (shock horror) a paper map.

[Bonjoy]

What TTT said about what3words. Would seem a shame to build up a big library of boulder locations and then be reliant on a third party to actually be able to convert those in to usable co-ordinates.

I think google came up with a similar system called plus codes, but with the key difference that the algorithm is open https://plus.codes and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Location_Code for the details. It also has some nice properties, like locations that are physically close together having similar plus codes and being able to shorten the code depending on how much accuracy you want.

Full details of various implementations available here https://github.com/google/open-location-code

In what sense is w3w not a 'usable' coordinate? Even grid references rely on a third party app AKA a map, surely?
For me a key point of w3w, and why I suggested it, is that the code is easily memorised and verbally transmitted (to your mate on the phone etc). As TTT pointed out, this might lead to errors due to spelling or missing a pluralisation or whatever, but in this context where the consequences are non serious this is no biggy. All other coordinate systems i've seen have the disadvantage that they are a hard to remember random looking set of letters and numbers.

[sxrxg]

Does anyone try and give coordinates over the phone anymore though? Surely you just share the location of the bloc either as a pin on a map or send a message with the grid reference/lat-long that can be copied and pasted into a mapping app. Seems that way there is less chance of miscommunication than even with w3w.

w3w seems like a solution looking for a problem using technology when technology has already solved the issue by being able to send as a message.

[SA Chris]

Exactly. I would just get an OS location from my watch or OS locate App on phone, screenshot and send, rather than phoning someone and saying purple.monkey.dishwasher* and them getting it wrong.

*5 points for getting the obscure cultural reference without google.

[remus]

In what sense is w3w not a 'usable' coordinate?

By itself the three words have no meaning so you're reliant on w3w to convert it to a location for you. What happens if they go out of business? Or decide they want to charge users for access? Other systems (e.g. google's plus codes, grid references) just tell you how to do it and don't have a proprietary step in the middle. For example, what3words are pretty aggressive in protecting their proprietary step (e.g. taking legal action against people who reverse engineer the algorithm https://justpaste.it/39hat) whereas there's plenty of websites will convert a grid ref to a lat,lon for you.

Maybe Im just being overly sensitive, but what3words' business leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It seems like a marketing exercise to extract value from something that realistically doesn't have much value (relative to sending someone a pin, for example).

[spidermonkey09]

Exactly. I would just get an OS location from my watch or OS locate App on phone, screenshot and send, rather than phoning someone and saying purple.monkey.dishwasher* and them getting it wrong.

*5 points for getting the obscure cultural reference without google.

No such thing as an obscure Simpsons quote. Skinner says the teachers will crack any minute, purple monkey dishwasher.

W3W is a waste of time, an attempt to privatise grid references. No reason not to use a drop pin or OS link.

[spidermonkey09]

In what sense is w3w not a 'usable' coordinate?

By itself the three words have no meaning so you're reliant on w3w to convert it to a location for you. What happens if they go out of business? Or decide they want to charge users for access? Other systems (e.g. google's plus codes, grid references) just tell you how to do it and don't have a proprietary step in the middle. For example, what3words are pretty aggressive in protecting their proprietary step (e.g. taking legal action against people who reverse engineer the algorithm https://justpaste.it/39hat) whereas there's plenty of websites will convert a grid ref to a lat,lon for you.

Maybe Im just being overly sensitive, but what3words' business leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It seems like a marketing exercise to extract value from something that realistically doesn't have much value (relative to sending someone a pin, for example).

Absolutely agree with all this. Not overly sensitive for me.

[Bonjoy]

In what sense is w3w not a 'usable' coordinate?

By itself the three words have no meaning so you're reliant on w3w to convert it to a location for you. What happens if they go out of business? Or decide they want to charge users for access? Other systems (e.g. google's plus codes, grid references) just tell you how to do it and don't have a proprietary step in the middle. For example, what3words are pretty aggressive in protecting their proprietary step (e.g. taking legal action against people who reverse engineer the algorithm https://justpaste.it/39hat) whereas there's plenty of websites will convert a grid ref to a lat,lon for you.

Maybe Im just being overly sensitive, but what3words' business leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It seems like a marketing exercise to extract value from something that realistically doesn't have much value (relative to sending someone a pin, for example).

What you mean is that is proprietary. I agree with you on that. That has no bearing on usability per se.


 

[Alex-the-Alex]

Agreed with the others. And Id add linguistic imperialism to the list of reasons not to use it. Mind you maybe numerals are too... Putting it in guides will give it traction and legitimise it the outdoors.

[Bonjoy]

Exactly. I would just get an OS location from my watch or OS locate App on phone, screenshot and send, rather than phoning someone and saying purple.monkey.dishwasher* and them getting it wrong.

*5 points for getting the obscure cultural reference without google.

That's how I send locations too. In the context of transposing a code from a paper guide to a phone I'd find it easier to type three words than a string of letters spaces and numbers. Minor UI improvement in my view. Obviously I wasn't factoring in W3W's nefarious and hegemonic plan to dominate the universe and subject its citizenry to enforced word based location finding .

[Alex-the-Alex]

Obviously I wasn't factoring in W3W's nefarious and hegemonic plan to dominate the universe and subject its citizenry to enforced word based location finding .

Easy to overlook. A David Fincher film adaptation of w3w would help.

[SA Chris]

Exactly. I would just get an OS location from my watch or OS locate App on phone, screenshot and send, rather than phoning someone and saying purple.monkey.dishwasher* and them getting it wrong.

*5 points for getting the obscure cultural reference without google.

That's how I send locations too. In the context of transposing a code from a paper guide to a phone I'd find it easier to type three words than a string of letters spaces and numbers. Minor UI improvement in my view. Obviously I wasn't factoring in W3W's nefarious and hegemonic plan to dominate the universe and subject its citizenry to enforced word based location finding .

But you aren't transposing, it's a screenshot or photo.

[Will Hunt]

What 3 Words is bad news for all the reasons outlined above.

For paper guides there's a far better solution which is to use QR codes. These can be used to tell your phone to open Google maps with a pin dropped on a particular location. But what if you wish to change the mapping provider in the future (let's hypothesise that Apple maps or Bing Maps becomes superior in future, for instance) or that mapping provider changes the way that you link into their app thus breaking your QR code? The solution is to have each QR code open a URL which you own which automatically redirects to the relevant app. Because you control the redirect you can change it at any time in the future should you wish to link through to a different app etc. This is also useful because you can track how many times your redirect page for a crag/boulder has been accessed - so you get feedback on whether people are using the QR codes and which ones they're using.
Our guide will have QR codes for parking locations and each crag's RAD entry. The little icon which holds the QR code for a parking location also has the lat/long written as text which can be manually entered into any mapping app.

Building up a reliance on W3W is a mistake in my view. It relies on climbers downloading a 3rd party "non-standard" (i.e. it's not integral to Android/iOS). W3W can, at the drop of a hat, paywall their system. We thought Strava would never do that, didn't we?

On the specific subject of building a library of pins, I think 27crags has done this but the accuracy depends on whoever submitted the data (which of course will be true of anything I guess). There are some problems with it which I will describe with this rambling anecdote:
During lockdown I was trying to sort the map for Caley for our guidebook. I was aware that there were a few differences between the map that appeared in YG vol1 and other resources like 27crags and the old Cameron Duff. I couldn't go to the crag myself to ground truth it (and you can't see the boulders through the trees on Google or Bing maps' satellite imagery) so I got a volunteer who lives nearby to go to Caley, stand on top of each boulder, and drop a pin on wherever he was to build up a map of GPS pins. I plotted these on a GIS against the 27crags pins. To my horror they were both all over the place. Completely. Not only were the pins not on top of the few boulders I could see on the satellite view, they weren't even correct relative to each other (i.e. the Sugarloaf was plotted south of Sucker's Wall etc). It was a complete mess. I understand that some people have had success with GPS in wooded areas but there appears to be something about Caley which sends it haywire.
I had to download some LIDAR data (which penetrates trees) and plot it as slope (which highlights steep edges, i.e. the outlines of boulders) to pick out where the boulders were, and then use the maps in various guidebooks to figure out which boulder each LIDAR boulder actually was. A lot of work, but the map in the book will be accurate!

The way I've communicated all this info to the artist who's making the maps is to create a Google My Map for each crag with a big dump of information on it. You can plot individual boulder locations, footpaths, etc. I'm not sure how useful this would be in the field though as I'm not sure how accessible these things are on a smartphone. This is the one for Brimham - the map that Don created from this is so beautiful that I considered having it printed and framed.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1EHw7VofXXLumKGlL3h6tCN64klOd5KFH&usp=sharing

[Bonjoy]

Exactly. I would just get an OS location from my watch or OS locate App on phone, screenshot and send, rather than phoning someone and saying purple.monkey.dishwasher* and them getting it wrong.

*5 points for getting the obscure cultural reference without google.

That's how I send locations too. In the context of transposing a code from a paper guide to a phone I'd find it easier to type three words than a string of letters spaces and numbers. Minor UI improvement in my view. Obviously I wasn't factoring in W3W's nefarious and hegemonic plan to dominate the universe and subject its citizenry to enforced word based location finding .

But you aren't transposing, it's a screenshot or photo.

If I'm using a paper guide to find the exact location of a well hidden boulder in the middle of a forest or whatever I would be feeding a code into some form of map/app. A screenshot or photo won't do this unless it's using some text recognition software, which may or may not also involve fiddly copy pasting.

[Bonjoy]

Will - I think QR codes have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. You've pointed out some positives. Some downsides I see are:
- they're space hungry (an issue on paper guides)
- they're not verbally transmissible
- they require a functional phone camera, which may be a pain in some contexts - low battery, low light, heavy rain, etc.
- they share some downsides of w3w in that if they're in any way broke they are unusable (unlike grid ref where you might be able to infer which digit is wrong, or the location might be out by 100m but still at the same crag) and they introduce an intermediate step which doesn't exist with traditional coordinate codes

[SA Chris]

A screenshot or photo won't do this unless it's using some text recognition software, which may or may not also involve fiddly copy pasting.

But using a paper map won't give you a W3W ref either will it? And if you have your phone on you it automatically produces the OS ref from OS Locate of the point where you are when you get there? It will also indicate to you which way you need to go to get to a certain point you've taken from a map, based on the ref you get from looking at OS Locate or a GPS watch, rather than having 3 random words 10 m away from another 3 random words.

[Bonjoy]

A screenshot or photo won't do this unless it's using some text recognition software, which may or may not also involve fiddly copy pasting.

But using a paper map won't give you a W3W ref either will it? And if you have your phone on you it automatically produces the OS ref from OS Locate of the point where you are when you get there? It will also indicate to you which way you need to go to get to a certain point you've taken from a map, based on the ref you get from looking at OS Locate or a GPS watch, rather than having 3 random words 10 m away from another 3 random words.

I read that several time Chris and I still don't get your point. perhaps we are talking at cross purposes.
The functionality I was discussing is best exemplified as using a paper guidebook to find exact locations of multiple hidden boulders in a forest, assuming you have a phone and a decent signal to help you. How to most quickly/simply feed the exact locations into your phone from the guidebook.

[SA Chris]

Sorry, probably being unclear.

At least with a logical system like an OS grid reference, you can tell from the numbers which way you need to go and how far from your present location, assuming you have a vague sense of direction. With 3 random words, the next location 5 m away has another 3 random words which are completely unrelated to the first.

[Bonjoy]

Yes. In practice it acts more like a homing beacon. You have a point set on an online map on your phone and you walk towards that dot. Very handy in a pathless forest were navigation based on landmarks is difficult.

[tomtom]

Some relevant discussion in this article about the resurgence of QR codes - and some of their advantages and disadvantages etc... (its CV19 based - but lots is relevant)

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/sep/24/arrival-of-nhs-contact-tracing-app-heralds-return-of-qr-codes

[Oldmanmatt]

Yes. In practice it acts more like a homing beacon. You have a point set on an online map on your phone and you walk towards that dot. Very handy in a pathless forest were navigation based on landmarks is difficult.

Yes.
And fine when it’s all electronic, however, the advantage simply remains that you think it’s easier to remember or input three words; than a string of numbers (be it grid ref or lat/long).

And in the simplest terms here, of giving a single point in a guide book, then using you phone/gps to walk to it, it’s ok. I don’t really see it as better or easier, but in this context it’s just boils down to opinion.

However, the three word code crumbles instantly in the event of losing your electronics.

If I need to estimate a location and at some point during my journey I knew the grid ref of my location, I can dead reckon my approximate grid ref at time of need. Without my phone, I can’t determine my W3W for that location.
I can think of a great many times I have had insufficient signal to use the internet, but enough to place a call.

I tend to actually use a compass a lot too, though. X hundred meters NW of the car park, being a fairly easy thing to do, with practice, in even dense forest, boxing obstacles etc. It doesn’t become desperately challenging until you’re into multi kilometre jaunts.

I’ve been lazy and gone off to find a boulder in the woods, assuming my sense of direction is superhuman and got royally lost.

[Bonjoy]

However, the three word code crumbles instantly in the event of losing your electronics.

As does any other option fitting the OP's brief.


The time I would most likely find value in using a thing like the OP is suggesting would be in a place like Font where I'm at a crag but can't find a boulder. So knowing the approximate location is of no value to me, I need to know the exact location.