[duncan]

|'m proof-reading the forthcoming South Wales Climbing Guide for the sport and gear protected climbing in the valleys, Brecons and Black Mountains, and the coastal areas east of Swansea. It is a joint Climber's Club and South Wales Climbing Wiki collaboration. It will be very good and an interesting model for future non-commercial guides: anything better than dreadful is in the hard copy, the real rubbish remains in the wiki.

My question: how much beta is acceptable in route descriptions? None all? The occasional hint, such as important non-standard gear such as cams >3" on trad. routes? The full Paul Williams spray-down "rock-up to the hidden bucket over the roof, rock 4 placement out left youth"? Does is matter if it is a sport route (beta invalidates the onsight) or trad. (some beta tacitly accepted)?

[Duma]

this level:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/trial_wall_area-3341/skull_attack-64878

is def too much.

I think the position of the crux, unusual gear, and if it's morpho is all fine.

[SA Chris]

A sentence or two, any critical or unusual gear, no more.

[Fiend]

I'm going to say that using one's common sense and having a balance is the best approach, and I trust you with that duncan

I'd err on the side of "somewhere in between", and reserve useful beta for aspects of a climb that are particularly obscure and mis-judgeable, especially hidden gear and obtuse route lines. I think a bit of clarity in these situations can be pretty important to encourage people to go for the onsight which is pretty important. Beta for the moves and on sport routes should be more minimal.

[jwi]

For trad, my strategy is to describe what a "standard rack" would be for every crag, and if the route require something not in the "standard rack" this should be described.

[Will Hunt]

For a sport route I'm not particularly bothered from an ethical point of view by the description that Duma linked. There is too much description of the moves, and I suppose that could bother somebody trying to onsight it (but people don't tend to distinguish too much between onsights and flashes when it comes to sport and bouldering), but quite apart from that it doesn't manage to convey anything about the character of the climb. It's a three star route and the description makes it sound really dull. Is it a route with a big reputation or is it a pushover? Is it an arm melter? Is it desperate? Cruxy? Relentless?

Good quality photo topos open up the opportunity to talk less about where the route goes (though this obviously needs to be done) and more about what it's like - which is much more exciting and psycheful for the reader.

Some of my favourite route descriptions that I'm reading from Yorkshire limestone are the ones that goad and taunt the climber. Something along the lines of "make final desperate pulls up the final crack, or plummet down from whence you came"; or on The Ashes something like "four years of training and you're still going to get beaten".

As in all things, there is a balance to be found. For trad, I agree that crucial runner placements or non-standard runners should be described and it's important to try and write these things from the point of view of a leader for whom the grade is their onsight limit. For instance on Moria at Baildon Bank there's a good Friend 1.5 placement on the lower section; you then clip an old peg and pull up to the final crack which, if you don't carry hexes (and who does now?), will take absolutely nothing except a 1.5 Friend. Doing the crux and running it out to the top on fading arms above the rusty-choss peg is not E2, so I would hint at this in the description. Be careful as well in what you describe as "big" or "small" gear as everyone's understanding varies. I'd consider small cams to be anything less than a Friend 0 but most sub-E1 trad bimblers will stop at Friend 1 or 0.5; similarly I consider "big" friends to be anything over a Friend 4, but when I racked up for Big Greeny and took a F4 up my partner looked at me agog - to them that is some sort of specialist offwidthing kit (I ended up placing it, could have placed another, and placed two F3.5s before doing the top wall!).

Trad in some areas has enough trouble with lack of traffic as it is that helpful and encouraging comments that give the climber a hand might not be a bad thing. As Fiend says, feeling like you're forearmed with a bit of gen might start to break down the psychological barriers keeping people off routes. It might be too much to describe where hidden holds are but for those climbs where there is a crucial hidden hold (Valkyrie, Great Western etc) then mentioning it can be helpful in letting the climber know that there is a solution, they just need to hang on a bit longer, think laterally and figure it out.

[Fiend]

I think Fiend should have come up with better phrasing than repeating the term "pretty important", tho 

[SA Chris]

That is pretty important.

[Fiend]

Aaaargh 

Back on topic and on the subject of beta, actually making sure the lines and descriptions are ACCURATE and CONSISTENT  is just as, errr, pretty important as giving useful beta hints. I'm hoping the CC have improved this aspect somewhat since the shambolic "ignore people who have actually done the routes" West Penwith guides, and it's not quite as crucial for smaller simpler outcrops, but worth reiterating.

[jwi]

On the contrary, if someone gives me beta on the moves for a sport route within my onsight limit, I often loose interest and try something else instead.

[scragrock]

Good Question...
I struggle with this when writing up descriptions and it is a fine line between vague and a Dirty Wave of Beta.
Its a mix of experience, knowledge and local specs.
If in doubt hit the highlights-
1- Sit or stand start
2- Start holds, if they aren't obvious
3- a wee hint a sneaky Beta....maybe
4- Where it Tops out

Job Done

[duncan]

Thanks all, very useful.

I take the point about encouraging people on to trad. routes. This is south east Wales not Dinas Cromlech.

I’ve taken a firm line for beta in sport routes. One description starts by mentioning the difficulty to onsight, then blows the onsight completely.

Per jwi, my view that anything beyond a defined standard rack should be mentioned but any gear description should be specific (4” cam, not large Friend).

Some of my points probably stray into editing rather than proofreading but the editors are free to ignore them. 

[Fultonius]

We were just having the same conversation last week when we were over in Fairhead. It's an interesting guide - on first acquaintance it apeears backwards. Trying to find the crags when they run right to left, but you arrive at the crag at the left end, moving pages to the right....

It all makes sense once you're abbed in and are looking at the crag from the ground up...

Some of the route descriptions there are brilliant "climb a long way above gear to a crux exactly where you least want it", but others are totally bafflingly overly and inaccurately described:

E.G. Waist deep in alligators: Last pitch (around 15m of climbing up a steep slab/corner with a capping roof, gets about 3 lines of description), where as crucial info about the first 2 pitches is totally absent (i.e. whether to traverse right at the second belay, or climb 10m of slab first (answer...it's the second, the first puts you on questy E5 5c terrain....). Edit:

) (5b). Climb the crack just right of Viking to belay at the ledges running right.
2) (5c/6a). Traverse out to the arête (2 poor pegs) and climb this to the slab above, move up and left to a belay (No. 3 friend at belay).
3) (6a). Continue up the slab, No. 3/3.5 friend in a slot at the bottom of the dirty groove above, move right and climb up to the overhang where the expanding crack takes a friend and a good small wire goes in above, traverse right to a good undercut and a poor peg, step down on to a good hold on the lip of the overhang and traverse right to the groove (No. 1 RP) climb up to the corner and good pro. Climb the corner until it is possible to step on to a sloping foothold on the right, continue up on edges and the arête to a block, up and over this to the right to reach the corner of Buttons and Bows, belay here or continue to top.

Similarly, the stonking single pitch hand and finger crack, GBH, which should just described as: Climb the handcrack, with some face moves leading the crux fingercrack and continuation crack above, has this (edit: found the descr.):

A good route for the aspiring hard man, it takes the crack immediately right of Fáth Mo Bhuartha. Climb the deep crack on excellent jams to the bulging wall. Climb the wall on well-spaced flat holds. Gain a small rounded foothold and make some difficult moves up the thin crack on good finger slots then a high step to reach a sloping foothold. Continue up the crack on good jams.

Not only was there too much beta "all the flat holds, rounded foot holds stuff", but it's not even the easiest way to climb it which is:  "use your bloody feet!"  It's a finger crack, so you can just climb the crack with none of the high foot , round foot mis-beta. Toe in, twist, stand up, lock for glory.

I actually like wordy descriptions, but only to "flavour" the route, to entice and inspire. I don't mind cruxes being described as "devious", "thrutchy" etc. but too much beta, especially when it could be climbed in a different style... chop it hard, chop it fast, and chop it brutally!


P.S. If gear is stated, please, PLEASE use the more common BD/newDMM/Totem sizes, not the outmodded "Friend"  sizes"...

[dunnyg]

Agree with freind sizes,I have no idea what a freind 1.5 is.

[webbo]

It’s bigger than a 1.0 but smaller than a 2.0. I hope that helps.

[dunnyg]

Is it like a carabiner?

[Fultonius]

And can we have all nut placements in Moac equivalent sizes too please....

[duncan]

P.S. If gear is stated, please, PLEASE use the more common BD/newDMM/Totem sizes, not the outmodded "Friend"  sizes"...

I get this but note that BD, DMM and Totem all have different numerical sizing systems. There is the option of saying "purple cam", which is fairly universal or the more precise but pedantic 1" cam.

The major issue in a UK guidebook is when non-standard gear is required which is hardly the case for a friend 1.5/purple/1" cam.

And can we have all nut placements in Moac equivalent sizes too please....

 

[SA Chris]

Americans seem to use the system "gear to 4" which seems to cover all issues.

[dunnyg]

I like the indian creek guide which just gives you a list of cams. Ace. Getting off topic though, sorry!

[tomtom]

A Fiend 2.0? I thought one was sufficient 😃

[webbo]

I like the indian creek guide which just gives you a list of cams. Ace. Getting off topic though, sorry!

Well you aren’t going to need much beta out there, other than “ Start jamming and keep going till you reach the belay”

[mrjonathanr]

P.S. If gear is stated, please, PLEASE use the more common BD/newDMM/Totem sizes, not the outmodded "Friend"  sizes"...

I get this but note that BD, DMM and Totem all have different numerical sizing systems. There is the option of saying "purple cam", which is fairly universal or the more precise but pedantic 1" cam.

The major issue in a UK guidebook is when non-standard gear is required which is hardly the case for a friend 1.5/purple/1" cam.

I have tried, I really have. Partners still look in bewilderment when I tell them they need a Friend 2,0 or a Friend half. And it’s no use asking a colour blind climber whether it’s a blue or purple sling...

[Offwidth]

For a sport route I'm not particularly bothered from an ethical point of view by the description that Duma linked. There is too much description of the moves, and I suppose that could bother somebody trying to onsight it (but people don't tend to distinguish too much between onsights and flashes when it comes to sport and bouldering), but quite apart from that it doesn't manage to convey anything about the character of the climb. It's a three star route and the description makes it sound really dull. Is it a route with a big reputation or is it a pushover? Is it an arm melter? Is it desperate? Cruxy? Relentless?

Good quality photo topos open up the opportunity to talk less about where the route goes (though this obviously needs to be done) and more about what it's like - which is much more exciting and psycheful for the reader.

Some of my favourite route descriptions that I'm reading from Yorkshire limestone are the ones that goad and taunt the climber. Something along the lines of "make final desperate pulls up the final crack, or plummet down from whence you came"; or on The Ashes something like "four years of training and you're still going to get beaten".

As in all things, there is a balance to be found. For trad, I agree that crucial runner placements or non-standard runners should be described and it's important to try and write these things from the point of view of a leader for whom the grade is their onsight limit. For instance on Moria at Baildon Bank there's a good Friend 1.5 placement on the lower section; you then clip an old peg and pull up to the final crack which, if you don't carry hexes (and who does now?), will take absolutely nothing except a 1.5 Friend. Doing the crux and running it out to the top on fading arms above the rusty-choss peg is not E2, so I would hint at this in the description. Be careful as well in what you describe as "big" or "small" gear as everyone's understanding varies. I'd consider small cams to be anything less than a Friend 0 but most sub-E1 trad bimblers will stop at Friend 1 or 0.5; similarly I consider "big" friends to be anything over a Friend 4, but when I racked up for Big Greeny and took a F4 up my partner looked at me agog - to them that is some sort of specialist offwidthing kit (I ended up placing it, could have placed another, and placed two F3.5s before doing the top wall!).

Trad in some areas has enough trouble with lack of traffic as it is that helpful and encouraging comments that give the climber a hand might not be a bad thing. As Fiend says, feeling like you're forearmed with a bit of gen might start to break down the psychological barriers keeping people off routes. It might be too much to describe where hidden holds are but for those climbs where there is a crucial hidden hold (Valkyrie, Great Western etc) then mentioning it can be helpful in letting the climber know that there is a solution, they just need to hang on a bit longer, think laterally and figure it out.

I broadly agree (except other cam types of similar size to the 1.5 will probably fit) but to support Fiend's point on topos some information where it is crucial can be helpful in the text, especially for sea cliff topos ( less useful than normal as you often don't get to see that view). It's really easy to check a topo ten times and still miss an obvious mistake (My favourite is a Rockfax topo line for a Wharncliffe Chimney where even the smallest infant couldn't squeeze through where the topo line indicates.

[Muenchener]

The full Paul Williams spray-down

blindly grope round the ridiculously overhanging arete for the 'Father of all Jugs'

From the classic Snowdonia Rock Climbs 1982 edition. Ditched most of my old guidebooks when I emigrated; never parting with that one.

Name the route.

[nai]

could it be as simple as Overhanging Arete on Cyrn Las?

[Muenchener]

Could be but isn't 

[duncan]

could it be as simple as Overhanging Arete on Cyrn Las?

The jugs on Overhanging Arete are all too obvious from below and the PW description is rather prosaic: “...follow a line of holds to the huge jug on the arête. Pull up to another huge jug...”

The father of all jugs is to be found on a much lower altitude crag.

[jwi]

My favourite is a Rockfax Topo that draw the line for a multipitch on the wrong mountain. On a wall with no recorded routes.

[cheque]

The Axe?

[Stabbsy]

The full Paul Williams spray-down

blindly grope round the ridiculously overhanging arete for the 'Father of all Jugs'

From the classic Snowdonia Rock Climbs 1982 edition. Ditched most of my old guidebooks when I emigrated; never parting with that one.

Name the route.

Samurai Groove at Hyll Drem?

[Muenchener]

We have a winner 

[Fiend]

Winning route too.



I'd say the amount of beta revealing that jug to go for isn't too much, it's still completely "out there" for a roadside crag route.