[hongkongstuey]

After 16-years sitting on my arse I've decided it's about time I updated the bouldering guide for Hong Kong. As such, i'm looking for some inspiration in terms of guide 'style' and format. Any recommendations on quality guides already out there that are stylish, functional etc. and I can 'borrow' ideas from?

Couple of examples of current working formats included here (with one UKB star currently filling a few photo spots until I get some good pics of the young local lads crushing) - note these are still working drafts so include an abundance of typo's etc still:

https://hongkongclimbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ShekO.pdf

https://hongkongclimbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/HaFaShan.pdf

[fatneck]

Hi Stu, these look great and would appear from my armchair to be very useable.

For inspiration and FWIW my favourite guides of recent times are Torridon Bouldering, Fairhead Bouldering and anything by Vertebrate though there a few less iconic guides than Panton's original NW Bouldering guide....

[tomtom]

Look great Stu - though I didnt like the blobby font for the titles - and prefer Arial to Times... But I may be just being a font snob/wanker..

[SA Chris]

I'm not massively keen on that font either, looks like it belongs in Carnarby Street circa 1968.

I liked your old HK guide, similar sort of "feel" to old North Wales one.

Also like Bouldering in Ireland and Torridon one, as well as Boulder Britain.

[hongkongstuey]

cheers guys - playing around with different styles so appreciate the feedback 

[dunnyg]

Lancashire bouldering is one I have used most recently, and that is really easy to use and generally well put together.

[tomtom]

I like the NWales one (new) and the Lakes one (new) - but TBH for my failing eyesight they are hard to read. Lancs one is pretty straightforward.

[cheque]

With feedback like “base it on a book from 20 years ago” and “make the text massive so I don’t have to wear my glasses” I hope you’re also getting opinions from younger demographics Stu. 

I think the serif typeface looks great but the main one is a total clash with it. Using white for the lines on the topos would look cleaner too I reckon.

There’s a bit of an MS Word look to some of the pages. Try making the borders either side narrower? The pages that look best are the ones where the picture fills the whole page so maybe try and get the photos to bleed across the whole page and the sky to fade into the text areas. Maybe it just needs some kind of gradient or texture instead of plain white. The maps look great.

[JamieG]

Agree with the feedback regarding font. Overall, I think it is looking good. Certainly looks easy to use. I agree regarding white lines (and maybe the circles too rather than red).

Not to get too woke, but is the problem name "Jap Girls Don’t Date Lepers" not a tad racist? It stuck out a bit when I was looking through it. In light of current movements (e.g. https://gripped.com/news/ending-colonialist-and-racist-place-and-route-names/) this may be a chance to rethink the name of such problems. Maybe ask the FA if they have an alternative. Because once it's in the guide it will probably stick for quite awhile.

Otherwise good effort.

[Coops_13]

Also I noticed a couple of V? grades. I recently bought a new guide here in CO where so many boulders were V?. A quick google showed the name of the problems and grades - just made it seem like the author had been really lazy.

Obviously only one or two in here but I'd say worth finding out the true grade or omitting altogether

[SA Chris]

Not to get too woke, but is the problem name "Jap Girls Don’t Date Lepers" not a tad racist? It stuck out a bit when I was looking through it. In light of current movements (e.g. https://gripped.com/news/ending-colonialist-and-racist-place-and-route-names/) this may be a chance to rethink the name of such problems.

It's also discriminating against the necrotically challenged.

[hongkongstuey]

Awesome feedback folks - really really appreciate this (and yes, that name is a bit anomalous so could easily be updated - as I recall, it was a slur on one of the guys inability to pull a certain young lady the night before, which he attributed to a bad case of sunburn / peeling skin )

the V? relate to problems I need to go back out and check or lines I've spotted that may not have been climbed yet (did a bunch of them last night to start finishing things off). Will be a thorough check to make sure none of these slip through the cracks and stay when I eventually go to print

[SA Chris]

This also reminds me of how great the bouldering looks over there. Just need to win that lottery and join you one winter for a but of climbing and nip over to Japan for some powder.

[tomtom]

Awesome feedback folks - really really appreciate this (and yes, that name is a bit anomalous so could easily be updated - as I recall, it was a slur on one of the guys inability to pull a certain young lady the night before, which he attributed to a bad case of sunburn / peeling skin )

the V? relate to problems I need to go back out and check or lines I've spotted that may not have been climbed yet (did a bunch of them last night to start finishing things off). Will be a thorough check to make sure none of these slip through the cracks and stay when I eventually go to print

One think I do Stu when editing a large document is have a key character (usually * or **) and put this where I need to replace a word or add a reference/check something etc.... then when its nearly complete I can do a search for * to find what I've not done. Sounds like you're using V in the same way - but a search will turn up alot of V's :D

PS - Give r-man a PM/DM - as well as the Lancs Guide I know he's working on another at the moment...

[Yossarian]

Re fonts / layout - my advice would be to pick a really clear sans serif for the cover / headings, etc like Helvetica / Univers / Neue Haas Unica. Futura would work well too. Then use a nice serif for the body text - I use Sabon for almost everything like this. The latter is more legible / nicer to read, and feels a bit less cold than setting everything in sans serif.

I’d love to design a guidebook one day - it’s the maps and diagrams that freak me out. The ones in the Font Straight Ups guides must’ve been so much work...

[steveri]

Alignment geek - your indents seem to go out of whack when the problem numbers get into double figures - eg ShekO.pdf p5,7,17. Keep the dog obvs

[Pantontino]

Re fonts / layout - my advice would be to pick a really clear sans serif for the cover / headings, etc like Helvetica / Univers / Neue Haas Unica. Futura would work well too. Then use a nice serif for the body text - I use Sabon for almost everything like this. The latter is more legible / nicer to read, and feels a bit less cold than setting everything in sans serif.

I’d love to design a guidebook one day - it’s the maps and diagrams that freak me out. The ones in the Font Straight Ups guides must’ve been so much work...

Photo topos are pretty straightforward, provided you've got a good set of flat light shots and the knowledge to make the lines accurate. Maps are a different game altogether though. There's a huge amount of work involved in any good quality map. Navigation is, of course, also guided by clear, unambiguous approach descriptions...and best of all nowadays one of these: 53.077367, -4.166689 (the Main Wall at Castell Cidwm in case you were wondering)

[Pantontino]

After 16-years sitting on my arse I've decided it's about time I updated the bouldering guide for Hong Kong. As such, i'm looking for some inspiration in terms of guide 'style' and format. Any recommendations on quality guides already out there that are stylish, functional etc. and I can 'borrow' ideas from?

Couple of examples of current working formats included here (with one UKB star currently filling a few photo spots until I get some good pics of the young local lads crushing) - note these are still working drafts so include an abundance of typo's etc still:

https://hongkongclimbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ShekO.pdf

https://hongkongclimbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/HaFaShan.pdf

Looks like a great area. Here's a few thoughts:

The topo lines are a bit awkward and angular - maybe try smoothing them out a bit? Or maybe the lines are in tune with the blocky/square numbers?

The bright red and yellow on the topos is a bit jarring - maybe try something a bit less in-yer-face?

I'm not keen on the mix of fonts. The headlines are too wacky and the main copy is too basic/old fashioned. Anyway, there is a dissonance between them. Plenty of ways of resolving that.

Why not add the fa details for each problem (where known)? Takes up very little space on the page but adds lot of character and background.

[hongkongstuey]

had a play with fonts etc. and updated as below:
https://hongkongclimbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ShekO.pdf

tried out white lines (on the topo's, not the cut with credit card type), but wasn't really feeling it so have just left the topo's be for the time being - need to test out best line style / colour combo's for a few key areas of different rock to see which looks best. will have a play at smoothing the lines etc. in the meantime as per Panto's suggestions.

Will also so how much adding FA details screws my formatting about - generally avoided this previously as almost 50% of the problems are probably mine and didn't want to seem like i was blowing my own trumpet... If i don't add to descriptions then i'll probably include a little history section to cover the key ascents of classic / milestone problems and make sure they're not lost to history.

really really appreciating peoples thoughts and input to this - great to get this type of input nice and early on in the process so its only a few sections that will require playing around with before templates get locked in place - have almost 20 areas and >1,000 problems to cover with this update...

[SA Chris]

Just don't use what 3 words for directions!

[tomtom]

Looks ace Stu. Much clearer imho.

I’m not a fan of the larger font first letter of words in titles / or maybe not quite that large... but that’s a minor gripe. Like the light blue.

[SA Chris]

minor grip, but maybe a space between bottom of photos and text? Give them a bit of elbow room.

[hongkongstuey]

ignore comment re white lines for topo's just updated them and seems much cleaner presentation when they get embedded in the file

Will try and kill off the larger first letter thingy - guess that's attached to the font i chose as its not something i set

getting there....

[hongkongstuey]

just got quotes back from the printers, all starting to feel very real now after a winter of hard work...
(with the added bonus of having to visit and climb in a hell of a lot of places)

500-pages,
>1,300 problems,
30+ different sectors...

time to clear out the snagging list and get it all wrapped up and ready

[Fultonius]

Just don't use what 3 words for directions!

Why not Chris?

[remus]

Just don't use what 3 words for directions!

Why not Chris?

I cant speak for Chris, but personally I wouldn't use it because there are plenty of other options available that are not reliant on a proprietary system.

[Fultonius]

I'm intrigued as there's been a bit of a move towards using W3W for emergency rescue. I was just on some working at height / rescue training and the general feeling was that it was a sensible move to use W3W as it cuts down the chances of error.

[dunnyg]

https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/0/why-bother-with-what-three-words/

[SA Chris]

I'm intrigued as there's been a bit of a move towards using W3W for emergency rescue. I was just on some working at height / rescue training and the general feeling was that it was a sensible move to use W3W as it cuts down the chances of error.

In what way? I'd say it increases chances. A grid ref using phonetic alphabet and numbers is fairly distinguishable even with poor phone reception and high winds, but if you say "baby" and someone mishears as "lady" for example, you could be searching on the other side of the planet. If you start having to spell out each word, then it can be 20 letters or more vs 2 letters and 6 numbers.

And all the comments made above.

[Bonjoy]

Whilst I agree with many of the arguments against W3W, some of them are irrelevant to use in a UK bouldering guide. There is no denying the utility of the system in some context. My preference would be for a guide to have the W3W location plus the LatLong coordinates, such that you get the utility of W3W whilst being futureproofed against any moves to paywall W3W.

[remus]

Whilst I agree with many of the arguments against W3W, some of them are irrelevant to use in a UK bouldering guide. There is no denying the utility of the system in some context. My preference would be for a guide to have the W3W location plus the LatLong coordinates, such that you get the utility of W3W whilst being futureproofed against any moves to paywall W3W.

If it's utility in a guidebook that you're after then lat/lon + a QR code that redirects to a map pin seems like a better option (QR codes being an open standard, map pins being as precise as you want and again nor proprietary).

[hongkongstuey]

I opted for QR code linking to Google Map (and also back to the online versions of the guide hosted on www.hongkongclimbing.com) on the main area intro pages as well as the lat/long for each and every boulder on the specific topo pages too

W3W isn't really widespread for use in HK - I had to google what the hell you guys were all talking about for it t make any sense to me   

[hongkongstuey]

a little snippet of how its looking (minus the page numbers in the summary as that'll be the very last thing I update)

[Moo]

That QR code idea is genius, it'd be good to apply that on hard to find individual problems as well. I'm sure its not just me who's ended up lost in the maze of identical tracks around fontainebleau.

[SA Chris]

W3W isn't really widespread for use in HK - I had to google what the hell you guys were all talking about for it t make any sense to me   

I was going to say maybe it's a language thing, but there seem to be options for most languages.

[Bonjoy]

Swings and roundabouts. They deffo have advantages, the downside of QR codes is you can't pass on verbally and they take up more pagespace than alternatives.

[Potash]

Plus one for avoiding W3W.

It appears to be a prime example of rent seeking behaviour.

[steveri]

Call me an old cynic but W3W has 100 staff and is burning cash. They’re going to want their money back at some point surely?

[SA Chris]

They'll go the Strava route I bet

[hongkongstuey]

No turning back now - okay to print instruction given so time to sit back and wait for a large pallet of books to arrive and take up all available space in an already crammed flat 

512 pages, 1,300+ problems, 30+ sectors, and 1 chuffed author with how the final product looks

[macca7]

 

Congratulations! Looking great hope it goes well!

[hongkongstuey]

Out with the old, in with the new... time to find myself a new project to keep me entertained and out of trouble:

[Pantontino]

Good effort! I know how easy it is to lose yourself in one of these guidebook projects, so fair play to you for making it through.