[duncan]

Long sling with an overhand on the bight knot

[cheque]

Isn't that what the Metolius PAS is?

As I understand it, yes. It’s like a chain of belay loops rather than a sling stitched into sections. Like most Brits who’ve never aid climbed (or climbed sport with American punters) I’ve never used either  though!

[Fultonius]

That work?

[SA Chris]

You only want the black bits at the end though? Wouldn't the rest get in the way?

[Johnny Brown]

Long sling with an overhand on the bight knot

Don't knot dyneema slings unless you're comfortable halving the strength. I.e. I'd be happy to do it to equalise a belay but what you've illustrated is a bad idea imho.

[teestub]

Don't knot dyneema slings unless you're comfortable halving the strength. I.e. I'd be happy to do it to equalise a belay but what you've illustrated is a bad idea imho.

Seeing that this thread has now gone full trad punter I can ask a dumb question: I thought that potential fall forces onto a belay could be higher than onto a bolt half way up a route (assuming as you want to extend it, it will be at least half way up)?

[Wil]

Seeing that this thread has now gone full trad punter I can ask a dumb question: I thought that potential fall forces onto a belay could be higher than onto a bolt half way up a route (assuming as you want to extend it, it will be at least half way up)?

The belay won't suffer from the pulley effect, so it's limited by the impact force of the rope and the slippage through the belay plate (I wouldn't fancy hold a fall directly onto the belay. The first runner off a stance is going to be the most at risk.

Back to the main topic. What I've generally done is clip a longer sling through the bolt biner, then a quickdraw on the sling. I don't really see a problem with this? I can clip the quickdraw on the bolt when I get to it, and I can clip the lower one at an appropriate point (I generally use a QD because it sits better). There's a minor issue with the sling in the way of the top QD, and probably a small potential for some rope/sling abrasion in a fall?

[sidewinder]

Have we covered the option of clipping a short qd into the bolt carabiner of the longer qd, I know this is metal on metal but avoids double clipping the bolt and avoids rope running over sling.

[Will Hunt]

Back to the main topic. What I've generally done is clip a longer sling through the bolt biner, then a quickdraw on the sling. I don't really see a problem with this? I can clip the quickdraw on the bolt when I get to it, and I can clip the lower one at an appropriate point (I generally use a QD because it sits better). There's a minor issue with the sling in the way of the top QD, and probably a small potential for some rope/sling abrasion in a fall?

I think this is basically what has emerged as being the best way to do it, except I wouldn't bother clipping a draw to the long sling - just have a single krab and tape/elastic the sling next to the krab to stop it spinning around. Everything else seems flawed in some way. Duncan's knotted sling is a bit of a risky strategy for the reason that JB explains and it doesn't seem well suited to a sport climbing scenario where you might be taking repeated falls onto the gear. Imagine trying to undo that knot at the end of the day!

The daisy chain thing is fine but who's really going to go out and buy one of them unless they're going aid climbing?

[Johnny Brown]

Seeing that this thread has now gone full trad punter I can ask a dumb question: I thought that potential fall forces onto a belay could be higher than onto a bolt half way up a route (assuming as you want to extend it, it will be at least half way up)?

The belay won't suffer from the pulley effect, so it's limited by the impact force of the rope and the slippage through the belay plate (I wouldn't fancy hold a fall directly onto the belay. The first runner off a stance is going to be the most at risk.

Yeah, the top quickdraw will see the highest forces. The forces at the belay will be much lower. Also I would expect loading only one end of Duncan's knotted sling to be much weaker than loading them both as you would when equalising a belay (and if you want to go full supertopo we could now discuss the efficacy of this).

...I know this is metal on metal

No idea where the metal on metal came from, it's a nonsense. You clip wires, you clip bolts. Two 'rules': don't chain snapgates, and for sportclimbing have quickdraws with dedicated ends.

Possibly came from a mistaken extension of the fact that nylon on nylon generally is a bad idea?

[Will Hunt]

There's been some confusion around the metal on metal thing. Obviously using two bits of metal climbing gear together is ok because (as has been pointed out), duh!, clipping bolts/wires/via-ferrata etc etc etc.

The phrase "metal-to-metal" came in when I was taught how to extend trad quickdraws on the fly in a trad scenario where you do it sling-to-metal. The rule is actually as JB says: don't enchain snapgates if you're going to fall on them. There are obvious exceptions for clipping krab-to-krab where the risk of the krabs unclipping isn't present because you're statically loading them - i.e. clipping directly to a draw when clipsticking/stripping a route etc

[Bradders]

Long sling with an overhand on the bight knot

So is the answer essentially this, without the knot?

[Steve Crowe]

Take the knot out of the long sling, replace the short loop with a quick draw. Clip the long sling into the top (bolt) krab. Tape the crab onto the long sling with a lot of tape so it won’t turn. Finally be absolutely sure the the krab on the long sling can’t invert like  happened to young Italian climber TitoTraversa.

[SA Chris]

I thought his death was caused by someone making up QDs with the 'biner just going through the rubber retainer, but not the dogbone.

https://gearjunkie.com/tito-traversa-death-climbing-instructor-sentenced-quickdraws

[Will Hunt]

This is what you do. Chris is right that Tito's draws were all badly made up by a non-climbing parent who didn't understand what they were doing. But the same thing can easily happen on it's own while the kit is in a bag (see demo below). The Tito Traversa risk is something I'd considered but it's not going to happen while the setup is hanging - it would happen while it was stored in your bag. It's so simple to set up (it's literally just clipping a sling to a krab and putting an elastic band on!) there's no reason you'd pack this away in your bag and run the risk - you'd just make it up fresh every time you used it.



Tito Traversa thing demo:

[Steve Crowe]

The set in in Will’s image is how I do it. I used multiple 4ft slings doubled up as QDs especially on long euro tufa routes. If you decide to have some permanent longs slings I’d just recommend taping up about 2 inches so that the krab can’t invert like in the video.

[SA Chris]

Cheers Will, interesting. Not seen that before.

[Duma]

Back to the main topic. What I've generally done is clip a longer sling through the bolt biner, then a quickdraw on the sling. I don't really see a problem with this? I can clip the quickdraw on the bolt when I get to it, and I can clip the lower one at an appropriate point (I generally use a QD because it sits better). There's a minor issue with the sling in the way of the top QD, and probably a small potential for some rope/sling abrasion in a fall?

I think this is basically what has emerged as being the best way to do it, except I wouldn't bother clipping a draw to the long sling - just have a single krab.

Think the reason not to use a qd on the end of the sling is the straight gate  at the top end is more likely  to have nicks or burrs from bolts that could cut the sling.

[Fiend]

I'm impressed took a 3 page thread to come up with this.....   

Did anyone mention skipping the clip, or climbing quicker, or doing what the cool kids do which is to stick another bolt in under the pretence it's a working bolt or re-equipping old gear or something??

[reeve]

I'm impressed took a 3 page thread to come up with this.....   

Ha ha

Back to the main topic. What I've generally done is clip a longer sling through the bolt biner, then a quickdraw on the sling. I don't really see a problem with this? I can clip the quickdraw on the bolt when I get to it, and I can clip the lower one at an appropriate point (I generally use a QD because it sits better). There's a minor issue with the sling in the way of the top QD, and probably a small potential for some rope/sling abrasion in a fall?

I think this is basically what has emerged as being the best way to do it, except I wouldn't bother clipping a draw to the long sling - just have a single krab.

Think the reason not to use a qd on the end of the sling is the straight gate  at the top end is more likely  to have nicks or burrs from bolts that could cut the sling.

None-expert caveat:

I doubt there is any real risk of this with a sling which is not moving whilst under load. It would require a pronounced sharp burr to cut a static sling. I think the risk of this happening is much greater with a rope which is moving through a 'biner whilst under load. Even then, I think it's more likely to cause accelerated wear to a rope (but I would still avoid it at the rope end, to the point where I religiously show my anger towards my girlfriend every time she gets the ends of a quickdraw mixed up). This is a similar but distinct situation from rope-end crabs which have been worn to a knife-edge by ropes passing through them like you see on fixed draws.

Having a quickdraw on the end of the sling is unlikely to have the rope-end crab flip upside down without having to mess around with tape or elastic bands.

[nai]

I'm impressed took a 3 page thread to come up with this.....   

I started a reply to the original question to suggest this but with a QD rather than a single krab then got distracted.

I guess it'd have rumbled on anyway, at least we all know some examples of bad practice now.

[Will Hunt]

Tbf, Stabbsy described this on page one.

without having to mess around with tape or elastic bands.

If that hair bobble looks like faff then I can only presume that you've never had to attempt to arrange a child's hair in the style of Princess Anna from Frozen...

[SA Chris]

Neither have I. Pony tail or scissors, she chooses.

[webbo]

No weird hair day to raise funds for the school then.

[tomtom]

At last! The thread is worth reading!!