[mrjonathanr]

Hi all, I would be very interested to know what different schools are doing about children changing for PE lessons. Crowded and claustrophic PE changing rooms may present a greater risk of transmission. My daughter’s school, for example, has the kids come attend in PE kit all day on days when they have that lesson.

Thank you in advance for any responses. Feel free to add anecdotal comments below!

Jon

[SA Chris]

Ours both have PE twice a week (outdoors if weather allows) need to go and come home in PE kit. Also daughter in P4 has "outdoor learning" once a week too so goes in "outdoor clothes" (leggings and wellies), so half the uniform we bought is going to be unused.

[mrjonathanr]

Cheers Chris. Hmm, just read my post back, it’s a bit incoherent.

Basically, does your kid have to use the school changing rooms or not?

[SA Chris]

No, not allowed to use them, so need to wear PE / Outdoor kit all day.

[Duma]

Wears PE kit to school on relevant days, and only changes if wet/muddy after the lessons.

[Johnny Brown]

As I understand it, ours are doing PE in their usual clothes (they don't have a uniform).

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks for the replies, keen to get an overview.

[SamT]

Lads are both at secondary school in sheffield.  No uniform,  changing rooms shut, been told to come into school in PE kit on the days they have PE.

[Duma]

Wears PE kit to school on relevant days, and only changes if wet/muddy after the lessons.

this is (state) secondary in Bristol

[gme]

The school mine attends all do sport on Wednesday afternoon and are told to wear kit all day so don’t need to change. Guess they come home muddy.
No extracurricular sport at minute until things settle but we are told this is planned for two weeks time.

[gme]

This is an independent school but the same thing stands at the local comp.

[Nibile]

Is this about power endurance for junior comps?

[gme]

Deadhanging I thought.

[galpinos]

Manchester Primary, turn up in PE kit for PE days.

[Oldmanmatt]

Now have the four at two different Secondary schools.

One is all over the Covid crisis, taking no chances and doing everything possible. There, both my year 7 and my year 9 kids are travelling to and from school in PE kit, but they have increased lesson durations to minimise movement between classes. Max 3 subjects per day on academic days and only one other (1hr) lesson on PE days.

The other school.

Crap. Shit attitude. Held a whole year 7 assembly yesterday, no distancing, and congratulated the kids on “having lived through the pandemic”.

[BrutusTheBear]

I run a small unit for 8 pupils within a mainstream secondary school with 1200ish pupils.  So pupils are asked to turn up in their PE kit on days they have PE and keep it on to avoid changing rooms.  Each year group is in a 'bubble' anyone else reckon calling 240 people a 'bubble' is akin to calling an elephant a mouse??
But here's the rub ladies and gentlemen, from the inside as it were..  There ain't no social distancing in secondary schools.  Class sizes are simply too large, children come into close contact at pinch points within the school, children come into close contact with each other because they 'forget' about social distancing, children come into close contact with each other entering and exiting classrooms, on the way to and from school, by choice at break times. From my personal experience whether they use changing rooms or not is a moot point.  I don't blame them, they're little humans that need and thrive  on social contact.  The mitagating factors and government advice on making schools safe are unworkable in my school and I would hazard a guess in most schools.  So if the children have the virus it's going to be transferred.

[SA Chris]

No social distancing in any schools. Our kids have staggered mealtimes, and playtimes now, but in primary they stay in a class "bubble" all day, shoulder to shoulder with other kids at grouped desks.

However, they've been back nearly a month now, and zero clusters linked to transfer among schoolkids in Scotland. Either none have been on contact with someone carrying it (unlikely) or children simply don't transfer it?

[BrutusTheBear]

primary schools are a much simpler proposition to keep children in actual bubbles as they generally have the same teacher and class all day long.  If the virus is spread by teenagers and it is prevalent within a community it will be spread within schools in those communities, can't see how it wouldn't be.  So let's hope it's not prevalent amongst  teenagers and that they don't spread it..  we'll find out soon enough.

[nai]

My youngest just joined eldest at secondary.  They've implemented some pretty good measures to minimise contact between year groups and reduce footfall around the school.

They have staggered start and finish times, staggered break and lunch times.

Each year group has their own section of the school and they mostly stay in the same classroom all day.

Classroom windows are left open whatever the weather

Not allowed to stay indoors at breaks and lunch whatever the weather

*Neither of the above been seriously tested yet

They do have to change in and out of PE kit unless it's first or last lesson of the day

Unfortunately we had an email this afternoon stating that there had been a case and the child and several "close contacts" have been isolated.  Doubtful it was picked up in school after only one day back but not a confidence building start.

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks to everyone who voted, more opinions would be very welcome.

Brutus, I suspect the bubble of 200 is to limit numbers sent home to that year group if there’s a confirmed case. How effectively year group bubbles can be maintained... well that’s one of the reasons for my enquiry about changing rooms.

[BrutusTheBear]

Thanks to everyone who voted, more opinions would be very welcome.

Brutus, I suspect the bubble of 200 is to limit numbers sent home to that year group if there’s a confirmed case. How effectively year group bubbles can be maintained... well that’s one of the reasons for my enquiry about changing rooms.

  Yes. I am aware of the purpose of the 'bubble', I'm intrigued by the use of that language though to describe quite a large group of people.
I don't want to make my school sound like a free for all though.  We have in place such things as a one way system, open doors and windows, regular cleaning of facilities and classrooms, designated areas for year groups, careful management of equipment etc. etc.  Just an observation from a my lunchtime wonder around a secondary school today that whilst there are stickers on the floor, posters and verbal reinforcement etc.. on the whole social distancing is not being observed by the pupils.
Part of my role is also providing outreach support to SEND departments at other schools in the district and a neighbouring district. I'll be visiting a large range of schools over the coming months.  Our town is served by 2 secondary schools of similar size.  The school that is my base has gone for static teachers and no face coverings.  The other school has gone for static classes (teachers move around school not pupils) and compulsory face coverings in communal areas.  Given they serve the same community it will be interesting to see whether there are different developments at each school and/or differences in pupil behaviours.
I feel desperately sorry for headteachers that have had to make these decisions, have barely had a moment to breathe over the summer and will undoubtedly be blamed should things go wrong.

[gme]

primary schools are a much simpler proposition to keep children in actual bubbles as they generally have the same teacher and class all day long.  If the virus is spread by teenagers and it is prevalent within a community it will be spread within schools in those communities, can't see how it wouldn't be.  So let's hope it's not prevalent amongst  teenagers and that they don't spread it..  we'll find out soon enough.

No one has ever said social distancing would happen in schools nor is it happening anywhere in Europe or the world as far as I can see. Loads of countries, including Scotland well ahead of England and as far as I know few, if any, issues.

You obviously have some beef with it but to me it’s so important kids go back to school it’s worth the risk.
Only thing I do agree with you on is the Changing rooms thing that seems a bit pointless but I am someone who thinks they should just get on with it as normal.

[mrjonathanr]

Wouldn’t you bother trying to contain any transmission within year groups? Bear in mind that a lot of kids are asymptomatic and changing rooms create conditions for transmission between year groups.

[BrutusTheBear]

GME your assumption is incorrect, I don't got beef.  I have 2 children 6 and 9 years old, they needed to get back in school and am happy for them to do so.  A large number of the cohort I specialize  in working with need the routine and structure of school in their lives, so the return is welcome to them and their families.  We have been working bluddy hard through lockdown to give them some of that structure and routine whilst at home but it's not the same.. 
Perhaps, I have come across the wrong way but I am trying to point out that sharing a changing room or not isn't going to make a difference and that 200+ people isn't a bluddy bubble!
We'll see how it all pans out but I suspect the very different approaches of the 2 secondary schools in my town won't have significantly different outcomes.
MrJR year groups are mixing on the journey into school, my unit works across the year groups,  depending on the school they pass in corridors and siblings are across year groups.  I think it's there to reassure as is the word bubble when applied to a year group.

[BrutusTheBear]

No one has ever said social distancing would happen in schools..

apart from the government in their advice to schools on opening 
Number 6
Prevention
1) Minimise contact with individuals who are unwell by ensuring that those who have coronavirus (COVID-19) symptoms, or who have someone in their household who does, do not attend school.

2) Where recommended, use of face coverings in schools.

3) Clean hands thoroughly more often than usual.

4) Ensure good respiratory hygiene by promoting the ‘catch it, bin it, kill it’ approach.

5) Introduce enhanced cleaning, including cleaning frequently touched surfaces often, using standard products such as detergents and bleach.

6) Minimise contact between individuals and maintain social distancing wherever possible.

7) Where necessary, wear appropriate personal protective equipment (PPE).

[SA Chris]

However, they've been back nearly a month now, and zero clusters linked to transfer among schoolkids in Scotland. Either none have been on contact with someone carrying it (unlikely) or children simply don't transfer it?

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/6022054/coronavirus-scotland-schools-greater-glasgow-clyde/

Statement withdrawn..

edit - current article added.

[gme]

Bit of a misleading headline.

One paragraph in.

Health chiefs say there is no evidence of transmission inside any of the schools identified.

There are obviously going to be cases found in schools. The important thing is transmission rates in the school and as yet there is no evidence of this.

[Motown]

Daughter - 5 - wearing PE kit to school on two days she has P.E.

School I work at - change at school but as all students have PE last lesson they remain in kit to go home. However... this is a private school with a maximum of thirty students in any year group (approx. 120 in Senior school) and therefore space is not at a premium. The reality for students and staff in a school with space and small class sizes is that other than sanitiser, some one way systems, and basic distancing measures, not a lot has changed.

No staff room, which is a shame. Unlike some other schools I've worked at, everyone seems to like each other.

A lot less meetings 

[Oldmanmatt]

Bit of a misleading headline.

One paragraph in.

Health chiefs say there is no evidence of transmission inside any of the schools identified.

There are obviously going to be cases found in schools. The important thing is transmission rates in the school and as yet there is no evidence of this.

First, I am not in disagreement with you, in general.

However, that statement about “no evidence” etc. sounds flawed.
It’s not really something that anyone can assert with sequencing the genome of each infection and I’ll bet you 50p and a sherbet dip that hasn’t been done.

Throw in the old “absence of evidence isn’t...” argument and it’s an even weaker statement and not really a rebuttal.

I’m saying you should take it with a pinch of salt.

Unfortunately, this shit is only really going to be explicable in hindsight, if ever. 

[fatneck]

Just to note that my lad's school have just changed their guidance and he will now be getting changed for PE in school as they have made the changing rooms Covid Secure

[SA Chris]

What, got Covid bouncers at the door?

[Bonjoy]

Bit of a misleading headline.

One paragraph in.

Health chiefs say there is no evidence of transmission inside any of the schools identified.

There are obviously going to be cases found in schools. The important thing is transmission rates in the school and as yet there is no evidence of this.

If my experience is anything to go by the evidence will be along soon enough. I appreciate this is just a sample size of one etc.
Spike has been sent home from school after a week and a half back at school. Two of his classmates have confirmed CV-19, and several other are awaiting test results back after showing symptoms, including Spike (heavy cold symptoms Sat-Sun, then up repeatedly last night vomiting). This suggests transmission in school to me. A bunch of other (five?) schools in Sheffield have also had outbreaks, but I’m not sure if they were individuals or groups.
Pretty annoyed that parents were forced to send kids back on pain of being fined and now Spike is confined to the house for two weeks, and then what? Back in for another week and then another fortnight stuck at home? Rinse and repeat. Had we had the option of maintaining homeschooling without sanction I might have taken it, given that I’m working from home and have a day off in the week. In so doing it would have reduced numbers in school and reduced transmission chains.

[Ru]

If my experience is anything to go by the evidence will be along soon enough.

Same here. Kids back for 4 days, large chunk of the school self isolating after a confirmed covid case, our kids got ill back end of last week, now awaiting test results. Colleague at work has the same experience, different school.

[tomtom]

Next doors 6yo has been off since weds/thurs. I can hear her coughing now... they have not bothered getting a test... (F*ck knows why).

That said - our 4yo had a runny nose on Friday and we all thought here we go.. and it was a 24/36 hour sniffle. Fine now. So there are the colds/runny noses going around....

[mrjonathanr]

I genuinely don't understand why anyone would think that children won't communicate the virus to each other when they are demonstrably not immune. That would presuppose they do not shed the virus in any form - an unbelievable scenario for which there is no evidence.

[Sidehaas]

That said - our 4yo had a runny nose on Friday and we all thought here we go.. and it was a 24/36 hour sniffle. Fine now. So there are the colds/runny noses going around....

Our 3 y/o got a runny nose after a day at nursery 3-4 weeks ago.  Gradually evolved over a few days and by day 4 was coughing quite a bit. Main symptom still a runny nose but thought we better get a test. Next day cough had gone, runny nose persisted. Then the test came back positive. So don't rely on the characterisation of adult Covid symptoms necessarily applying well to young kids(!) There isn't really much to be done other than be cautious about symptoms though.
We had to isolate for a fortnight, he was back at nursery just last week, then this morning we got a call to say one of the staff in his pre school group has tested positive, so he has to self isolate for another 14 days from when he was last in. It's a real pain.
If the stuff you read about most young kids being asymptomatic is correct, then I suspect the nursery is fairly rife with it. I've given up believing the line that kids don't transmit. However I still think it's the right thing for them all to be back.

[Sidehaas]

I genuinely don't understand why anyone would think that children won't communicate the virus to each other when they are demonstrably not immune. That would presuppose they do not shed the virus in any form - an unbelievable scenario for which there is no evidence.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that if it's majority droplet transmission then a 3-4yo at 3-4 feet tall is unlikely to transmit to a 6-ft bloke they pass in the supermarket. However that doesn't apply to their family who they get close to and it doesn't apply to teenagers who are close to fully grown.
Sorry for taking you off topic.

[tomtom]

That said - our 4yo had a runny nose on Friday and we all thought here we go.. and it was a 24/36 hour sniffle. Fine now. So there are the colds/runny noses going around....

Our 3 y/o got a runny nose after a day at nursery 3-4 weeks ago.  Gradually evolved over a few days and by day 4 was coughing quite a bit. Main symptom still a runny nose but thought we better get a test. Next day cough had gone, runny nose persisted. Then the test came back positive. So don't rely on the characterisation of adult Covid symptoms necessarily applying well to young kids(!) There isn't really much to be done other than be cautious about symptoms though.
We had to isolate for a fortnight, he was back at nursery just last week, then this morning we got a call to say one of the staff in his pre school group has tested positive, so he has to self isolate for another 14 days from when he was last in. It's a real pain.
If the stuff you read about most young kids being asymptomatic is correct, then I suspect the nursery is fairly rife with it. I've given up believing the line that kids don't transmit. However I still think it's the right thing for them all to be back.

Scary stuff Sidehaas - you both alright?

I think if he’d had a temp or a cough I’d have tried to get him tested...

[Bonjoy]

However I still think it's the right thing for them all to be back.

I'm not so sure. If it turns out to be short spells at school followed by repeated two week house arrest, is this in any way better than homeschool for the foreseeable and freedom to consitently go out of the house for the foreseeable?
Spike is a climber and loves the outdoors. Literally not being allowed out the house (ergo way worse than lockdown so far) for fortnightly stretches is a real shit sandwich.

[mrjonathanr]

Sorry for taking you off topic.

Please don't apologise, there's no need! The topic has been pretty clear anyway, most schools have ditched changing for PE.

[Sidehaas]

That said - our 4yo had a runny nose on Friday and we all thought here we go.. and it was a 24/36 hour sniffle. Fine now. So there are the colds/runny noses going around....

Our 3 y/o got a runny nose after a day at nursery 3-4 weeks ago.  Gradually evolved over a few days and by day 4 was coughing quite a bit. Main symptom still a runny nose but thought we better get a test. Next day cough had gone, runny nose persisted. Then the test came back positive. So don't rely on the characterisation of adult Covid symptoms necessarily applying well to young kids(!) There isn't really much to be done other than be cautious about symptoms though.
We had to isolate for a fortnight, he was back at nursery just last week, then this morning we got a call to say one of the staff in his pre school group has tested positive, so he has to self isolate for another 14 days from when he was last in. It's a real pain.
If the stuff you read about most young kids being asymptomatic is correct, then I suspect the nursery is fairly rife with it. I've given up believing the line that kids don't transmit. However I still think it's the right thing for them all to be back.

Scary stuff Sidehaas - you both alright?

I think if he’d had a temp or a cough I’d have tried to get him tested...

We are fine now thanks, all seem fully recovered. Just really fed up having to keep him at home again. The experience has made me more cynical about the effectiveness of our system though.  I went through several days of not knowing if I should get a test myself. When is a cough continuous or persistent? Apparently 3 coughing episodes in 24 hours. What is a coughing episode? No idea. I was isolating anyway but there will be 1000s having to answer the same questions every day and with tests now being hard to come by, I suspect most will convince themselves one isn't necessary.

[Sidehaas]

However I still think it's the right thing for them all to be back.

I'm not so sure. If it turns out to be short spells at school followed by repeated two week house arrest, is this in any way better than homeschool for the foreseeable and freedom to consitently go out of the house for the foreseeable?
Spike is a climber and loves the outdoors. Literally not being allowed out the house (ergo way worse than lockdown so far) for fortnightly stretches is a real shit sandwich.

I agree that 2 weeks isolation without going out at all is really hard, especially for kids and even more so because other people are getting on with their lives again now.
But I don't think it's sensible to try to keep home schooling. Many/most people just can't do this effectively and even if you can, I think the younger kids at least are affected psychologically by not having any social contact. All things like play groups etc have been completely cancelled so nursery is the only opportunity ours has (maybe that's not the same for school age and after school activities? And I suppose they can just arrange things independently once they are old enough.)
The only way out I can see is a more severe partial lockdown starting in 2-3 weeks when people realise how bad it's getting, unless this thread is very unrepresentative of the country as a whole. If they can turn the general infection rate back down again then the numbers needing to self isolate in school would also go down.
Alternatively, maybe some school-age populations in the badly hit areas really will achieve a level of herd immunity and after a few months the nature of isolation procedures could possibly be relaxed. Probably wishful thinking.

[Oldmanmatt]

I didn’t realise this thread would head this way, so posted this in the main Covid thread:

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30489.msg616548.html#msg616548

[Bonjoy]

However I still think it's the right thing for them all to be back.

I'm not so sure. If it turns out to be short spells at school followed by repeated two week house arrest, is this in any way better than homeschool for the foreseeable and freedom to consitently go out of the house for the foreseeable?
Spike is a climber and loves the outdoors. Literally not being allowed out the house (ergo way worse than lockdown so far) for fortnightly stretches is a real shit sandwich.

I agree that 2 weeks isolation without going out at all is really hard, especially for kids and even more so because other people are getting on with their lives again now.
But I don't think it's sensible to try to keep home schooling. Many/most people just can't do this effectively and even if you can, I think the younger kids at least are affected psychologically by not having any social contact. All things like play groups etc have been completely cancelled so nursery is the only opportunity ours has (maybe that's not the same for school age and after school activities? And I suppose they can just arrange things independently once they are old enough.)

My point is that I object to being forced. In my circumstances I could homeschool indefinitely. My son has an active social life beyond school, plus online with his school friends. I'm not advocating 'everyone' homeschools. Why should the fact it's not a viable option for many/most mean it should not be an available option for those who can?
From my, admittedly generally pessimistic point of view it seems almost inevitable that school opening will cause outbreak after outbreak and therefore a good chance of repeated spells of house arrest. I'd like the option to opt out of a predictable and dangerous farce without financial and social punishment is all.

[Sidehaas]

Fair enough. In that case can you not apply to home school him in the way you could if it were not for covid?
https://www.gov.uk/home-education

[BrutusTheBear]

Bonjoy.  Home schooling is a totally viable and legal option under normal circumstances and I would assume so now too. I have worked with many families that have decided to home school their children because the education system doesn't work for them.  There are loads of online resources explaining your legal rights and explaining how parents make it work. 

[tomtom]

^^ I was just going to write something similar. 👍

[Johnny Brown]

Our 3 y/o got a runny nose after a day at nursery 3-4 weeks ago.  Gradually evolved over a few days and by day 4 was coughing quite a bit. Main symptom still a runny nose but thought we better get a test. Next day cough had gone, runny nose persisted. Then the test came back positive. So don't rely on the characterisation of adult Covid symptoms necessarily applying well to young kids(!) There isn't really much to be done other than be cautious about symptoms though.
We had to isolate for a fortnight, he was back at nursery just last week, then this morning we got a call to say one of the staff in his pre school group has tested positive, so he has to self isolate for another 14 days from when he was last in. It's a real pain.

Unlucky, sounds shit. And not much in this to encourage people to get tested is there? Are we really working on the principle of no immunity? I think most parents will tend to assume it's just a cold...

[Bonjoy]

Fair enough. In that case can you not apply to home school him in the way you could if it were not for covid?
https://www.gov.uk/home-education

Yes, I know there is that route. I suppose, other than just being in a bad mood and ranting, I would like for the option of the defacto homeschooling of lockdown to have remained open for an extended period.

[SA Chris]

My son has an active social life beyond school

I'm interested as to how this is seen as safer than going to school? better control? Lower numbers? Shorter exposure. Genuinely interested in the thinking, as I have similar thoughts.

[Bonjoy]

He does a climbing kids club thing twice a week, with the same small group, all wearing masks and following the wall's protocol. Plus we do outdoor climbing with the same individuals and their parents. Other than that it's family, or friends from his class at school, so kids he would be in contact with whether in school or not. More often than not the contact with school friends is online.