[RobK]

You might have more joy with the tin hat brigade over at https://lockdownsceptics.org/

OK, I'll admit, I clicked on the link. My favourite bit of the first post:

"COVID-19 isn’t the only respiratory disease around of course. But this year the rest are being strangely timid."

Hmmm, it's almost as if there are a load of measures in place that are preventing the spread of viruses 

[spidermonkey09]

You might have more joy with the tin hat brigade over at https://lockdownsceptics.org/

OK, I'll admit, I clicked on the link. My favourite bit of the first post:

"COVID-19 isn’t the only respiratory disease around of course. But this year the rest are being strangely timid."

Hmmm, it's almost as if there are a load of measures in place that are preventing the spread of viruses 

Amazing isn't it. Anywhere that employs Toby Young has to be a bit suss.

[Oldmanmatt]

You might have more joy with the tin hat brigade over at https://lockdownsceptics.org/

Honestly, he shouldn’t be wasting time here, he needs to get his arse down to Lidl and take advantage of these stunning savings:



 On a more serious note, but sticking with the “shit debating” theme, I’d all but forgotten about this.
Seems like we (once again) are missing a trick here:
Coronavirus: Sewage tests detect local COVID-19 hotspots

[Fultonius]

Matt - link doesn't work. Bit like the Neurons in the muscle brain.

[tomtom]

Matt - link doesn't work. Bit like the Neurons in the muscle brain.

Guardian link - but its elsewhere too

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/testing-sewage-for-covid-could-detect-outbreaks-early-scientists-say

Sampling sewage gives you an early warning as it shows up in faeces in tracable quantities before people are symptomatic (I think). I know/work with some of the folk at Bangor who have pioneered alot of this work in the UK. Interesting stuff. Also its how they know it was in Italy in Jan (I think) by going back and testing old sewage samples.

[Johnny Brown]

Now they've refused to extend it, reverting to "dependency on benefits / balancing the books arguments". Is there really that much of an audience nationwide that this will play well with?

I'm afraid having spent the first half of my life entirely surrounded by tribal Tory voters I can assure you that it will. Those two points are right at the heart of small 'c' conservatism. These are not bad people but typically they have next to no experience of poverty, deprivation or plain bad luck, and were born at a time when a little hard work and fiscal responsibility brought rapidly compounding rewards which they now attribute entirely to their own merit. You get an insight into this with the oft-repeated assertion that they themselves would find accepting handouts demeaning and would prefer the opportunity to work. Ignoring of course the facts that feeling demeaned rather takes a back seat to not eating and that in-work poverty is now the greater problem anyway. Meanwhile any benefits they receive are framed as 'tax windfalls' etc and somehow not comparable.

So hard to know what to think in general about the Welsh lockdown without being able to know the data for all the different variables and different options.

Completely agree Pete. From the beginning we've been treated as children who must be shielded from the data and accept diktats appearing as if at random. If the tiers had been introduced much earlier with clearly communicated data triggers they might have had a chance.

I know Elfyn has put in a huge amount of work trying to get the Welsh government to accept that hillwalking and climbing are low risk both generally and for transmission. They simply aren't interested while bigger, better-funded and connected lobby groups have managed to catch their ear (remember golf courses opening first?). In Wales obviously it does appear to be being conflated with other issues too and there seems to be a priority on broadly visible measures that will dissuade incomers.

[Muscle.Coach]

Newsflash - germs found in mound of turds shock. Anal hygiene essential to stop the spread.

What’s the thing with the Guardian links?

[Oldmanmatt]

Matt - link doesn't work. Bit like the Neurons in the muscle brain.

Try:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-sewage-tests-detect-local-covid-19-hotspots-12111784

[Oldmanmatt]

Newsflash - germs found in mound of turds shock. Anal hygiene essential to stop the spread.

What’s the thing with the Guardian links?

It’s called a “Newspaper”. They’re something that grownups read, a bit like a meme for people who can think.
You don’t need to worry about it.

[Anti]

Now they've refused to extend it, reverting to "dependency on benefits / balancing the books arguments". Is there really that much of an audience nationwide that this will play well with?

I'm afraid having spent the first half of my life entirely surrounded by tribal Tory voters I can assure you that it will. Those two points are right at the heart of small 'c' conservatism. These are not bad people but typically they have next to no experience of poverty, deprivation or plain bad luck, and were born at a time when a little hard work and fiscal responsibility brought rapidly compounding rewards which they now attribute entirely to their own merit. You get an insight into this with the oft-repeated assertion that they themselves would find accepting handouts demeaning and would prefer the opportunity to work. Ignoring of course the facts that feeling demeaned rather takes a back seat to not eating and that in-work poverty is now the greater problem anyway. Meanwhile any benefits they receive are framed as 'tax windfalls' etc and somehow not comparable.

So hard to know what to think in general about the Welsh lockdown without being able to know the data for all the different variables and different options.

Completely agree Pete. From the beginning we've been treated as children who must be shielded from the data and accept diktats appearing as if at random. If the tiers had been introduced much earlier with clearly communicated data triggers they might have had a chance.

I know Elfyn has put in a huge amount of work trying to get the Welsh government to accept that hillwalking and climbing are low risk both generally and for transmission. They simply aren't interested while bigger, better-funded and connected lobby groups have managed to catch their ear (remember golf courses opening first?). In Wales obviously it does appear to be being conflated with other issues too and there seems to be a priority on broadly visible measures that will dissuade incomers.

It seems borderline insulting to me if the BMC were to take a stance against hillwalking and being in the mountains again. The Welsh Government think that in order to protect the NHS I shouldn't drive 15 minutes up road into the mountains but instead drive to the off-licence and buy some vodka, cigarettes and chocolate and stay at home. Think I'll be making my own decision on this one.

[JamieG]

Newsflash - germs found in mound of turds shock. Anal hygiene essential to stop the spread.

What’s the thing with the Guardian links?

I assume you are just on a wind-up but in case not. I think the point of the article is that testing sewage can give you very good spatial resolution of where the covid hotspots are. Potentially before you see a rise in case numbers. A canary in the coal mine.

The guardian link thing is I guess because it can be a little bit of an left leaning echo chamber in here. So just to highlight that it is being reported more widely.

[Muscle.Coach]

Newsflash - germs found in mound of turds shock. Anal hygiene essential to stop the spread.

What’s the thing with the Guardian links?

It’s called a “Newspaper”. They’re something that grownups read, a bit like a meme for people who can think.
You don’t need to worry about it.

Ah, guardianista’s a cult in its own right.  Get yer tinfoil out....

https://off-guardian.org/2020/10/19/this-week-in-the-guardian-15/

[Oldmanmatt]

Now they've refused to extend it, reverting to "dependency on benefits / balancing the books arguments". Is there really that much of an audience nationwide that this will play well with?

I'm afraid having spent the first half of my life entirely surrounded by tribal Tory voters I can assure you that it will. Those two points are right at the heart of small 'c' conservatism. These are not bad people but typically they have next to no experience of poverty, deprivation or plain bad luck, and were born at a time when a little hard work and fiscal responsibility brought rapidly compounding rewards which they now attribute entirely to their own merit. You get an insight into this with the oft-repeated assertion that they themselves would find accepting handouts demeaning and would prefer the opportunity to work. Ignoring of course the facts that feeling demeaned rather takes a back seat to not eating and that in-work poverty is now the greater problem anyway. Meanwhile any benefits they receive are framed as 'tax windfalls' etc and somehow not comparable.

So hard to know what to think in general about the Welsh lockdown without being able to know the data for all the different variables and different options.

Completely agree Pete. From the beginning we've been treated as children who must be shielded from the data and accept diktats appearing as if at random. If the tiers had been introduced much earlier with clearly communicated data triggers they might have had a chance.

I know Elfyn has put in a huge amount of work trying to get the Welsh government to accept that hillwalking and climbing are low risk both generally and for transmission. They simply aren't interested while bigger, better-funded and connected lobby groups have managed to catch their ear (remember golf courses opening first?). In Wales obviously it does appear to be being conflated with other issues too and there seems to be a priority on broadly visible measures that will dissuade incomers.

It seems borderline insulting to me if the BMC were to take a stance against hillwalking and being in the mountains again. The Welsh Government think that in order to protect the NHS I shouldn't drive 15 minutes up road into the mountains but instead drive to the off-licence and buy some vodka, cigarettes and chocolate and stay at home. Think I'll be making my own decision on this one.

It is easy to see it that way and I’m almost in agreement.
I went out and ran a loaded 15k across the moors yesterday (16 kg Bergan, 652 mtrs of ascent, all off trail, 3:07 hrs #quiteproudofthat) and I desperately don’t want to be locked up again.

But I can understand why we end up with broad brush measures and how a minority interest like ours can get lost in clamour. I also think we have an inflated idea of the BMC’s influence on the powers-that-be.

Don’t hold your breath for special treatment.

[Oldmanmatt]

Newsflash - germs found in mound of turds shock. Anal hygiene essential to stop the spread.

What’s the thing with the Guardian links?

It’s called a “Newspaper”. They’re something that grownups read, a bit like a meme for people who can think.
You don’t need to worry about it.

Ah, guardianista’s a cult in its own right.  Get yer tinfoil out....

https://off-guardian.org/2020/10/19/this-week-in-the-guardian-15/

Can I borrow some of your tin foil? Sure you have plenty...

[Will Hunt]

Newsflash - germs found in mound of turds shock. Anal hygiene essential to stop the spread.

What’s the thing with the Guardian links?

It’s called a “Newspaper”. They’re something that grownups read, a bit like a meme for people who can think.
You don’t need to worry about it.

Ah, guardianista’s a cult in its own right.  Get yer tinfoil out....

https://off-guardian.org/2020/10/19/this-week-in-the-guardian-15/

Can I borrow some of your tin foil? Sure you have plenty...

I suspect that Muscle Coach's antagonistic use of the forum will wane when people stop taking the bait...
The sooner the better.

[Anti]

Now they've refused to extend it, reverting to "dependency on benefits / balancing the books arguments". Is there really that much of an audience nationwide that this will play well with?

I'm afraid having spent the first half of my life entirely surrounded by tribal Tory voters I can assure you that it will. Those two points are right at the heart of small 'c' conservatism. These are not bad people but typically they have next to no experience of poverty, deprivation or plain bad luck, and were born at a time when a little hard work and fiscal responsibility brought rapidly compounding rewards which they now attribute entirely to their own merit. You get an insight into this with the oft-repeated assertion that they themselves would find accepting handouts demeaning and would prefer the opportunity to work. Ignoring of course the facts that feeling demeaned rather takes a back seat to not eating and that in-work poverty is now the greater problem anyway. Meanwhile any benefits they receive are framed as 'tax windfalls' etc and somehow not comparable.

So hard to know what to think in general about the Welsh lockdown without being able to know the data for all the different variables and different options.

Completely agree Pete. From the beginning we've been treated as children who must be shielded from the data and accept diktats appearing as if at random. If the tiers had been introduced much earlier with clearly communicated data triggers they might have had a chance.

I know Elfyn has put in a huge amount of work trying to get the Welsh government to accept that hillwalking and climbing are low risk both generally and for transmission. They simply aren't interested while bigger, better-funded and connected lobby groups have managed to catch their ear (remember golf courses opening first?). In Wales obviously it does appear to be being conflated with other issues too and there seems to be a priority on broadly visible measures that will dissuade incomers.

It seems borderline insulting to me if the BMC were to take a stance against hillwalking and being in the mountains again. The Welsh Government think that in order to protect the NHS I shouldn't drive 15 minutes up road into the mountains but instead drive to the off-licence and buy some vodka, cigarettes and chocolate and stay at home. Think I'll be making my own decision on this one.

It is easy to see it that way and I’m almost in agreement.
I went out and ran a loaded 15k across the moors yesterday (16 kg Bergan, 652 mtrs of ascent, all off trail, 3:07 hrs #quiteproudofthat) and I desperately don’t want to be locked up again.

But I can understand why we end up with broad brush measures and how a minority interest like ours can get lost in clamour. I also think we have an inflated idea of the BMC’s influence on the powers-that-be.

Don’t hold your breath for special treatment.

I suppose I'm more on the side that the BMC shouldn't need to be involved at all. Last time they scolded us for thinking about being outside. That we were selfish and dangerous and incapable of judging risk. I'm happy with them sticking to access issues and leaving it to the individual to asses what they should and shouldn't be doing.

Given the ambiguity of the Welsh govt message if I think some (what I deem as) safe bouldering within a 15mi radius of my home is fine then I'm just going to do it until I'm explicitly told not to. None of it makes any real sense (see my off-licence rant, or the idea that remembrance day gatherings are somehow immune to COVID) if the goal is to stop the spread of a virus. I think we're (mostly) all reasonably sensible people capable of not being selfish. The rule breakers will in general continue to break the rules anyway.

[Muscle.Coach]

Just because you lads can’t suffer an alternative perspective without calling someone a loony. Look around and observe the madness ffs

[Will Hunt]

Now they've refused to extend it, reverting to "dependency on benefits / balancing the books arguments". Is there really that much of an audience nationwide that this will play well with?

I'm afraid having spent the first half of my life entirely surrounded by tribal Tory voters I can assure you that it will. Those two points are right at the heart of small 'c' conservatism. These are not bad people but typically they have next to no experience of poverty, deprivation or plain bad luck, and were born at a time when a little hard work and fiscal responsibility brought rapidly compounding rewards which they now attribute entirely to their own merit. You get an insight into this with the oft-repeated assertion that they themselves would find accepting handouts demeaning and would prefer the opportunity to work. Ignoring of course the facts that feeling demeaned rather takes a back seat to not eating and that in-work poverty is now the greater problem anyway. Meanwhile any benefits they receive are framed as 'tax windfalls' etc and somehow not comparable.

So hard to know what to think in general about the Welsh lockdown without being able to know the data for all the different variables and different options.

Completely agree Pete. From the beginning we've been treated as children who must be shielded from the data and accept diktats appearing as if at random. If the tiers had been introduced much earlier with clearly communicated data triggers they might have had a chance.

I know Elfyn has put in a huge amount of work trying to get the Welsh government to accept that hillwalking and climbing are low risk both generally and for transmission. They simply aren't interested while bigger, better-funded and connected lobby groups have managed to catch their ear (remember golf courses opening first?). In Wales obviously it does appear to be being conflated with other issues too and there seems to be a priority on broadly visible measures that will dissuade incomers.

It seems borderline insulting to me if the BMC were to take a stance against hillwalking and being in the mountains again. The Welsh Government think that in order to protect the NHS I shouldn't drive 15 minutes up road into the mountains but instead drive to the off-licence and buy some vodka, cigarettes and chocolate and stay at home. Think I'll be making my own decision on this one.

It is easy to see it that way and I’m almost in agreement.
I went out and ran a loaded 15k across the moors yesterday (16 kg Bergan, 652 mtrs of ascent, all off trail, 3:07 hrs #quiteproudofthat) and I desperately don’t want to be locked up again.

But I can understand why we end up with broad brush measures and how a minority interest like ours can get lost in clamour. I also think we have an inflated idea of the BMC’s influence on the powers-that-be.

Don’t hold your breath for special treatment.

I suppose I'm more on the side that the BMC shouldn't need to be involved at all. Last time they scolded us for thinking about being outside. That we were selfish and dangerous and incapable of judging risk. I'm happy with them sticking to access issues and leaving it to the individual to asses what they should and shouldn't be doing.

Given the ambiguity of the Welsh govt message if I think some (what I deem as) safe bouldering within a 15mi radius of my home is fine then I'm just going to do it until I'm explicitly told not to. None of it makes any real sense (see my off-licence rant, or the idea that remembrance day gatherings are somehow immune to COVID) if the goal is to stop the spread of a virus. I think we're (mostly) all reasonably sensible people capable of not being selfish. The rule breakers will in general continue to break the rules anyway.

I'm not sure that's what the BMC were doing to be honest. It seemed to me like they were just providing people with information about how a hastily passed bit of law applied to climbing.

Given what we know about the virus now, I don't think you'll find many people on the forum who disagree with your argument that climbing outdoors is safe and ought to be encouraged 

[Oldmanmatt]

Newsflash - germs found in mound of turds shock. Anal hygiene essential to stop the spread.

What’s the thing with the Guardian links?

It’s called a “Newspaper”. They’re something that grownups read, a bit like a meme for people who can think.
You don’t need to worry about it.

Ah, guardianista’s a cult in its own right.  Get yer tinfoil out....

https://off-guardian.org/2020/10/19/this-week-in-the-guardian-15/

Can I borrow some of your tin foil? Sure you have plenty...

I suspect that Muscle Coach's antagonistic use of the forum will wane when people stop taking the bait...
The sooner the better.

Aw.
I was having fun.
I am sooooo bored at the moment.

However, and this might give you a chuckle.

I had a quick PM chat with TT about this last night.

I wasn’t going to join in the current debate. Too much of a rehash from the spring and not enough novel ideas etc.

But I was reading it all.

Anyway, last night I had to spend an hour sat in the car waiting for one child to finish swimming club and was sat with No.1 daughter (15).
So Weedy Bus showed up on the thread and I thought it was quite funny. Showed his posts to my daughter, who has an almost hobby like interest in arguing on the internet.
So all the posts in my name, last night, were actually from her...

She’s here now, too.

But you’re right. Enough now.

I shall ignore.

[Oldmanmatt]

Just because you lads can’t suffer an alternative perspective without calling someone a loony. Look around and observe the madness ffs

I need look no further than your post.

(Sorry Will. Last one, I promise).

[Muscle.Coach]

Maybe they should advise on masks at crags. Non sharing of equipment and the sanitation of hands and equipment after each climb. Busy crags could be monitored by a covid ambassador and people who refuse could be humiliated on this forum or similar?

[Muscle.Coach]

Newsflash - germs found in mound of turds shock. Anal hygiene essential to stop the spread.

What’s the thing with the Guardian links?

It’s called a “Newspaper”. They’re something that grownups read, a bit like a meme for people who can think.
You don’t need to worry about it.

Ah, guardianista’s a cult in its own right.  Get yer tinfoil out....

https://off-guardian.org/2020/10/19/this-week-in-the-guardian-15/

Can I borrow some of your tin foil? Sure you have plenty...

I suspect that Muscle Coach's antagonistic use of the forum will wane when people stop taking the bait...
The sooner the better.

Oh yes don’t engage with the idiot loon, we’ve got to get back to our sensible insular partisan debate on how everyone else should live their lives. 😆

[Johnny Brown]

But I can understand why we end up with broad brush measures and how a minority interest like ours can get lost in clamour. I also think we have an inflated idea of the BMC’s influence on the powers-that-be.

I think it's fair to say the BMC has repeatedly punched above it's weight in such areas but, as you say, there is a clamour of voices wanting to be heard currently and my impression is that those with the simplest job structure - say a health club chain employing 000's - get taken more seriously than the possible larger but rather more nebulous economy associated with the outdoors.

The irony of course is that Pete has repeatedly called for the BMC to be reduced in size and remit while now bemoaning it's lack of influence.

I suppose I'm more on the side that the BMC shouldn't need to be involved at all. Last time they scolded us for thinking about being outside. That we were selfish and dangerous and incapable of judging risk. I'm happy with them sticking to access issues

Is this not the biggest access issue since Foot-and-mouth? You'll need to link to where they scolded people as I was actively involved in ensuring communications carried no such message.

The BMC sought and passed on expert legal advice on what we were allowed to do during the first lockdown. In some cases I thought that they erred on the side of caution but I am not a lawyer and they went with the experts. The way in which the government clearly lifted these restrictions rather suggested that unsurprisingly I had been wrong and the experts right.

Such restrictions have returned to Wales, and the BMC fought hard against them. That they lost is not evidence, as Pete put it, of them 'bending over' or embracing the restrictions. But once extant in law you have to concede the BMC have a duty to inform people of what the legal situation is. I suspect this time the BMC's dismay at the government's treatment may be more public, but we may equally find kicking back too hard is a stance that does not age well.

[teestub]

Do we perhaps think Mr Coach may be a previous forum member who burned through several aliases, each one ending with a flounce off?

[abarro81]

I suspect that Muscle Coach's antagonistic use of the forum will wane when people stop taking the bait...
The sooner the better.

Can't someone with admin privileges just get rid of them unless they start to write posts more than 1 line long?

Oh yes don’t engage with the idiot loon

Very ironic. I'm waiting for an articulate (or even coherent) response to my points on the other thread. See also the other thread RE logistics of herd-immunity. If you want a discussion then plenty of people here are open to it, but you'll have to actually put in a modicum of effort to think about the points raised and respond to them.

Do we perhaps think Mr Coach may be a previous forum member who burned through several aliases, each one ending with a flounce off?

Seems quite possible.