[teestub]

Dang. I was going to ask you for your October stock market picks 😀

That’s Pete’s job! Buy Vit B3, Patio heaters and bog roll, sell popcorn and opera glasses.

[Paul B]

https://twitter.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/1316119353750937605?s=19

Looks like GM and Lancs will be in tier 3 by the end of the week. So much for more clarity in the messaging.

[petejh]

Dang. I was going to ask you for your October stock market picks 😀

That’s Pete’s job! Buy Vit B3, Patio heaters and bog roll, sell popcorn and opera glasses.

Oh that's simple. Just BTFD (and then STFR).

[TobyD]

The government needs to have the confidence to just say that some businesses and indeed industries will not survive a pandemic world. Travel is knackered, at least one more airline will go before Christmas I'd guess; I can't see theatres surviving and many if not all cinemas look like going the same way.

That's the rhetoric of the fiscal Conservative, but it's tantamount to economic vandalism without funding in place to help these people. An extra 20 quid a week on universal credit is simply not going to cut it and is frankly insulting. What jobs are they supposed to go and get? Airily saying "they just won't survive" doesn't really suffice. 2/3 of minimum wage if you end up on the local furlough scheme is going to leave people going hungry.

The government not supporting the arts and the numerous other industries affected is a political decision. There is no reason debt built up can't be treated as wartime debt and paid off over many years. Even some conservatives are beginning to argue this, but Sunak is a slave to fiscal conservatism in the face of all the evidence (see his recent conference speech). This might belong in the old "how to pay for the crisis" thread.

National debt is never repaid, and likely never will. At present, the cost of borrowing is basically nil, that said...there's an argument for not even borrowing the required money, but just creating it. The usual downside of money creation is inflation, but in the current climate inflation is highly, highly unlikely.

It really is the time for UBI to be properly explored. If peoples basic needs were covered, then businesses could effectively lie dormant until demand picked up. (as long as rates, rents, and interest payment were all frozen).

This sounds reasonable until you wonder about all the landlords who own business premises. I'm not objecting to UBI, it doesn't sound like a bad idea in many ways,  but propping up the businesses seems counterproductive. 
Would it not be better, as tomtom suggested to find a way of supporting people rather than business? Putting money into adult education,  reskilling etc, I'd imagine a lot of things really need to change drastically to survive,  to the extent that they may be better starting from scratch rather than trying to adapt a now defunct system. 

[Paul B]

No idea about the other companies you mention, but Pestfix have been one of my suppliers for 3 or 4 years and I occasionally chat to their sales manager. I had an interesting conversation with them about the PPE contract.. sounded very much a case of small company done well due to their contacts in China.. no supporters of the government etc...
i.e. a very different version to what you read on here or in the press. Suppose we'll see what facts emerge down the line.

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1317017160779288576

The contract values look consistently huge. The delivery looks 'less good'?

[petejh]

No idea about the other companies you mention, but Pestfix have been one of my suppliers for 3 or 4 years and I occasionally chat to their sales manager. I had an interesting conversation with them about the PPE contract.. sounded very much a case of small company done well due to their contacts in China.. no supporters of the government etc...
i.e. a very different version to what you read on here or in the press. Suppose we'll see what facts emerge down the line.

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1317017160779288576

The contract values look consistently huge. The delivery looks 'less good'?

I see: 'small company wins various large contracts due to links with Chinese PPE suppliers'.
Jo Maugham QC  sees: 'small company = incompetent, therefore contracts must be corrupt'.

I'm not clear what he's saying or what evidence he's putting forward? Other than conflating something about FFP1 sold to private clients, which provides no evidence of anything (and I actually wonder if he's seen 'type II' and - being a bellend - assumed they are FFP1 and unsuitable?), and making jibes about 'Pestfix not knowing anything about PPE'... which just make him look like a clueless idiot because he mustn't know anything about pest control - an activity that begins with donning pretty much the exact PPE used by heath workers dealing with covid. Bellend.

Show me the evidence of corruption and incompetence, please, and I'll alter my view.

[Paul B]

I'm not trying to 'change your view' (per se) but I think the thread clearly highlights substantial contracts have been awarded to them without necessarily following due process (and the same continues with publication of the contracts).

You must know their scale better than me. Do the contract values look like what they can reasonably handle?

From what I've seen presented I'd be sceptical (and if my forward order book jumped that substantially I'd shit myself).

[petejh]

No, they aren't a £130million contract type of company in my experience of them. (So award the contracts to Serco?). But they're also very far from the company Maugham is trying to portray them as for his own agenda. They're a successful SME with contacts in the far east via the PPE they import to retail for pest control works. It's all a load of agenda-driven bullshit, until some actual evidence emerges.

[sdm]

Did they successfully deliver on the contracts? If not, were they still paid in full and will that money be returned?

I don't know anything about the company, these contracts, or whether the items were delivered. He seems to be implying that a large number of masks and suits were not delivered successfully?

Rushing out contracts without the usual scrutiny and bidding process seems reasonable* in the very early stages of the pandemic due to the unprecedented urgency.

*Provided the contracts are awarded to someone with either a track record of being able to supply the quantity and quality required or there being reasonable evidence that they have the resources and competency to be able to do so.

The terms of these contracts must also ensure that a substantial proportion of the payment is contingent on successful delivery.

If:
1) public money was used on contracts that were rushed through to companies who did not have the competency or resources to fulfill them, and
2) the contract terms do not allow for the money to be clawed back in the case of failure to deliver successfully,

Then that would be, at the very least, grossly incompetent.

If they successfully delivered at reasonable value to the taxpayer, or if payment was withheld for items not delivered, then it's a non-story.

[mrjonathanr]

I see: 'small company wins various large contracts due to links with Chinese PPE suppliers'.
Jo Maugham QC  sees: 'small company = incompetent, therefore contracts must be corrupt'.

I'm not clear what he's saying or what evidence he's putting forward? Other than conflating something about FFP1 sold to private clients, which provides no evidence of anything (and I actually wonder if he's seen 'type II' and - being a bellend - assumed they are FFP1 and unsuitable?), and making jibes about 'Pestfix not knowing anything about PPE'... which just make him look like a clueless idiot because he mustn't know anything about pest control - an activity that begins with donning pretty much the exact PPE used by heath workers dealing with covid. Bellend.

Show me the evidence of corruption and incompetence, please, and I'll alter my view.

Not really sure what you draw your conclusions from here?

The issue the GLS is raising is the government repeatedly breaking the law in failing to disclose accounts for public scrutiny. When the govt spends over £12bn of my -and your- money and the law says they have to be transparent about where it has gone, I think they should comply.

I didn’t see evidence Maugham accuses Pestfix of being frauds, or that he has some agenda beyond highlighting the lack of accountability around PPE contracts.

If there’s nothing untoward, making accounts public will put that to bed. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[Paul B]

TBF to Pete there are a few digs in there regarding Pestfix not being experts in supplying PPE (JM jokes that neither is he) which on the face of it isn't fair. PPE meeting a given standard is surely just that?

There's a recall notice letter buried in the threads regarding the FPP3/FPP1 masks in there too though.

I think from where I'm sitting the incompetence sits squarely with the Government. I've had similar scenarios at work where we've taken a good small supplier who has done their thing really well and then massively increased what we need from them. It didn't go very well and we should've realised that at the time (what it meant was a delay rather than something more sinister). Likewise, I'm delivering what I'm told is good work on a major national civils project ATM. There's 6 of us and as I said earlier, should my forward order book jump like that I'd crap myself and I'd expect my Directors to turn it down.

Pete asked whether the contract should've instead gone to Serco (tongue firmly in cheek I'm assuming). Perhaps if it had been tendered the alternatives (or even lack thereof) might be more obvious?

[petejh]

I didn’t see evidence Maugham accuses Pestfix of being frauds, or that he has some agenda beyond highlighting the lack of accountability around PPE contracts.

You didn't see evidence of him accusing Pestfix as frauds? He doesn't need to. All he needs to do in today's cess-pit of social media communication is drop a few jibes that portray his target in a certain light, and let his audience do the rest filling in the blanks of evidence. Read the comments - Mr 'I am disgusted at our government' and Mrs 'I am shocked and appalled about this' are more than adequately represented.
It's basically bear baiting entertainment for middle class people. Cunts. 

Maughham:

Those £346m of contracts awarded to a tiny entity with materially no assets and (on its own admission in now deleted crowdfunding text) no particular experience in PPE, which admits to supplying faulty PPE are not the only contracts it has received.

Tiny entity? look into their books - tiny profit doesn't equal tiny entity, as any self-respecting tax dodging offshore L3 would know. I suppose on Maugham's logic any company that acted in this way is also a tiny entity - Amazon then.
No particular experience in PPE? see my comment in the posts above - 'this just make him look like a clueless idiot because he mustn't know anything about pest control in that case - an activity that begins with donning pretty much the exact PPE used by heath workers dealing with covid.'
Supplying faulty PPE? What evidence does he provide that Pestfix supplied faulty PPE to the NHS? Show me the evidence and I'll alter my view. Instead, he conflates something about them selling some FFP1s to a private client and lets his audience infer the rest and get outraged at the picture in their minds.

Bellend.

[mrjonathanr]

Pete asked whether the contract should've instead gone to Serco (tongue firmly in cheek I'm assuming). Perhaps if it had been tendered the alternatives (or even lack thereof) might be more obvious?

 Not the point. I understand why Pete is upset about how Pestfix look with JM quoting the contract values like that, but it’s easily resolved, and a complete distraction from the issue.

Why have the govt not published the accounting despite a) being legally obliged to do so within 30 days of awarding the contract and b) promising to do so in June?

[petejh]

No you don't. I'm 'upset', as you put it - or pointing out bellendery behaviour by twats on twitter, as I put it - because it annoys me to see bully's trying to make a case for something without producing any actual evidence to prove their point, so instead of evidence they use bullshit rhetorical techniques such as inference, and other slights of hand.

If he produces evidence for the point he's trying to make - you know, the accepted method of showing something to be true - then I'll alter my view. It's very fucking simple.   

[mrjonathanr]

Your point about evidence is a good one. Sooner the govt publishes it, as they committed to do, the sooner he’ll stop finger pointing.

[Anti]

Love him or loathe him George Monbiot mentioned this in an article ages ago https://www.monbiot.com/2020/07/19/contract-killers/

At that point it looked like the attention was focussed on UK Govt. rather than PestFix themselves.

Another involves a pest control company in Sussex called PestFix, which has listed net assets of only £18,000. On April 13, again without public advertisement or competition, the government awarded PestFix a £32 million contract to supply surgical gowns. PestFix is not a manufacturer, but an intermediary (its founder calls it a public health supply business): its role was to order the gowns from China. But, perhaps because of its lack of assets, the government gave it a deposit worth 75% of the value of the contract. The government’s own rules state that prepayments should be made only “in extremely limited and exceptional circumstances”, and even then must be “capped at 25% of the value of the contract”.

If the government had to provide the money upfront, why didn’t it order the gowns itself? And why, of all possible outsourcers, did it choose PestFix? In the two weeks before it awarded this contract, it was approached by 16,000 companies offering to supply protective equipment (PPE). Some of them had a long track record in manufacturing or supplying PPE, and had stocks that could be deployed immediately.

Again, the government relies on the emergency defence to justify its decision. But it issued its initial guidance on preventing infection among health and care workers on January 10. On February 14, it published specific guidance on the use of PPE. So why did it wait until April 13 to strike its “emergency” deal with PestFix? Moreover, it appears to have set the company no deadline for the delivery of the gowns. Astonishingly, even today only half of them appear to have reached the UK, and all those are still sitting in a warehouse in Daventry. On the government’s own admission, “none of the isolation suits delivered so far has been supplied into the NHS”. So much for taking urgent action in response to the emergency.

[tomtom]

No surprises Manchester in Tier3 on Thursday night.

Interesting that earlier Govt offered £60m to council for extra support for business. Then talks broke down over a 5m difference apparently.

Now they’re not giving the 60m. Nothing extra (that Liverpool and Lancs have got)

Clearly the messaging to other councils is play ball or lose out. But,

It’ll be interesting how this plays out amongst the local population here (manchester). Some will think Burnham over played is (weak) hand and has walked away with a worse deal - IE blame Burnham. Others will see the Govt as being petty and in effect punishing the region. I wonder which narrative will dominate.

I’m surprised the Govt have been this petty TBH - I think there is a risk they will appear mean and petty - at a time when (for the same value of a small no checks PPE contract) people genuinely will need support.

[abarro81]

As someone not in Manchester (and thus not affected by the outcome), it's the gov that look like  from here... but then Bojo and his mates always look like twats to me, so I may not exactly be objective on the matter

[Pope B]

I’m surprised the Govt have been this petty TBH - I think there is a risk they will appear mean and petty - at a time when (for the same value of a small no checks PPE contract) people genuinely will need support.

I'd have thought the Tories are rubbing their hands in glee, they get to be both petty and mean, they have an extra £65mil to give to their mates, and they get to blame someone else for it all. It's Dominic Cummings wet dream. 

[Paul B]

Now they’re not giving the 60m. Nothing extra (that Liverpool and Lancs have got)

Clearly the messaging to other councils is play ball or lose out. But,

Whether or not this is more obfuscation still remains to be seen but they're saying that the £60M is still on the table if AB will take it.

I think the Gov (Gove especially) has done a fantastic job of muddying the waters about how these local lockdowns have been presented (both in Liverpool and GM) which will mean the blame will be directed at local leaders more than it should IMO. If I wasn't driving all day Thur I think I'd have BBC Parliament on to see how their actions go down.

[mrjonathanr]

I’m surprised the Govt have been this petty TBH - I think there is a risk they will appear mean and petty - at a time when (for the same value of a small no checks PPE contract) people genuinely will need support.

Think you may have answered your own question there tt.

[Will Hunt]

My gut feeling is that Burnham has thrown a lot of people under the bus in a bid to score some political points (mayoral elections are next May). But to really understand whether that stacks up I think we need to know what the money is intended for. Obviously it can't be to pay people who's business is affected, because £60m is less than fuck all in a place like GM. Does anybody know or have a link?

What's happening in parliament on Thursday? Bill and debate to enact the restrictions?

[Nigel]

Then talks broke down over a 5m difference apparently.

8 times less than the 40m for affordable housing that Jenrick helped pound-shop pr0nographer Richard Desmond swerve. Its an embarrassingly small sum for a national government to quibble over.

Zooming out, Johnson is playing a dangerous game with his regional strategy given that Wales and Northern Ireland are having circuit breakers. The UK media don't really do news from abroad, but they are unlikely to ignore any potential yawning gaps between the home nations. Time will tell on that. All his eggs are in this basket and you'd think he'd find a way to sneak an extra 5m to GM behind the curtain in order to get local buy in for added compliance, regardless of whether you think Burnham is right or wrong in his stance. In Johnson's own words they've spent 190 billion on Covid already so what difference would it make?

[Nigel]

My gut feeling is that Burnham has thrown a lot of people under the bus in a bid to score some political points (mayoral elections are next May).

If that is your gut feeling then you can console yourself that BJ is putting his arms around the people of GM, indeed the whole country, so I'm sure they will all "prosper mightily".

[mrjonathanr]

My gut feeling is that Burnham has thrown a lot of people under the bus in a bid to score some political points (mayoral elections are next May).

I doubt many round GM will share your gut instincts.