[jwi]

My hands start to sweat when I am watching people climb on film. I wouldn't be very much surprised if there are opposite reactions, for example that the hands sweat less just from the tactile sensation of crushing chalk between the fingertips.

[Dac]

With regard to the post on mountain project on the purity of Friction Labs chalk it strikes me that using a “Scanning electron Microscope (SEM) with Energy Dispersive X ray Spectroscopy (EDX)"  seems a rather curious method to use. The poster then talking about how they could obtain ‘food grade’ magnesium carbonate also does little to inspire confidence in their knowledge or abilities.

I was still working in analytical chemistry (merely as a bench monkey, granted) when Friction Labs first appeared with their claims of higher purity chalk. I recall having a look at methods to verify the claims and
a simple chemical assay would be far better. Sadly the required assay was not the sort I could have performed at the back of the lab without anyone noticing, so I never bothered.

[mrjonathanr]

I really wish I didn’t find Friction Labs substantially better than any other chalk, but I do. Maybe it’s 100% magnesium carbonate, but with some special homeopathic ingredient 😂

I tried some Friction Labs stuff for the first time today. Surprisingly, I climbed neither better nor worse than usual 

Bar perhaps less water of crystallisation/fewer random impurities from manufacture I’m not convinced there’s much to it beyond marketing. Still, if Nurofen makes your headache disappear faster than humble ibuprofen, maybe it’s worth paying for.

[Will Hunt]

The first time I came across Friction Labs chalk was a night session at Caley when we were on Secret Seventh. It was shitty conditions - not actually raining, but you could see tiny condensed droplets of water floating around in the air (not quite mist but getting there). Dave got his special chalk out and we all laughed at him for being so daft as to spend real money on chalk.
Then after failing on the problem quite a bit we noticed that Dave was getting higher up it than anyone, while we weren't making any impression on the terrible left hand finger-sloper. We all started dipping into his chalk bag and suddenly things felt better.

Another notable time was Jet Set in Font when the sun was on it. I got to the top two crimps plenty of times but they always felt a little greasy and slidey. Then used the Friction Labs and the friction improved dramatically.

You're not going to notice a difference if you're not climbing something where friction is a limiting factor, so really it's only beneficial when you're trying your hardest on moves which are individually very hard. It pained me to admit it at first, but it really does work.

[webbo]

So Will are you going to give things two different grades in your guide. One if you are using friction chalk and one for normal stuff.

[Fiend]

 

Gotta add "belief in placebos" to the long list of essential climbing skillz.

[petejh]

The strongest muscle is the mind, especially in climbing, and the mind is susceptible to believing things that aren’t true.
I too think that friction labs - the ‘Tesco finest’ of chalk - feels as if it works better than other brands. ‘Think’ and ‘feel’ being subjective and open to all kinds of confirmation bias.
Until someone designs an experiment, whereby a robot hand with real fake sweaty flesh^TM smothered in friction labs chalk displays a higher coefficient of friction on rock climbing holds versus a placebo robot hand smothered in other chalk, then I’m unmoved that friction labs is anything other than a well designed marketing hoax that uses clever advertising, alluring packaging and a convincing price point to play on climbers’ Achilles heel in being just as desperate for marginal gains as the next group of fools.

[Fiend]

That's Tesco Finest* , you uncultured oaf. The asterisk indicates a truly high quality product 

[Yossarian]

I used some Friction Labs Secret Stuff as part of a marginal gains approach (based on Stu L’s advice) at Ansteys last autumn and it worked wonders. I fully subscribe to the redpoint chalk bag model too. Conversely, I bought some awful overcrushed chalk on amazon and it’s useless, other than to mix into better stuff in small doses. If anything this recent wall position re liquid chalk only has focused our normal chalk preference - ocun or metolius for general use, friction labs for projects.

[sdm]

On the subject of expensive chalks and marginal gains, has anyone tried Black Diamond's Black Gold?

Even more expensive than Friction Labs, they claim the much larger surface area of upsalite makes it much more absorbent than other forms of magnesium carbonate. I think they use ~10% upsalite and the rest is standard magnesite. Or you can buy sachets of upsalite to mix in with your own chalk.

It never had the marketing force that Friction Labs had when it came out and I don't think I know anyone who has tried it. If it was as good as they say it is, I assume word would have got out by now so I guess it isn't as revolutionary for climbing as they claim.

[lagerstarfish]

some reference to SCIENCE

https://www.disruptivematerials.com/sports/

[SA Chris]

I though Upsalite was a BS marketing name, like Oakley Unobtanium ^tm but google reveals the name comes from where it was first made

https://phys.org/news/2013-08-upsalite-scientists-impossible-material-byaccident.html

[SA Chris]

Personally I think the most important part of chalk performance is how it's stored. As it's natually water absorbent, it will take in moisture in a damp atmosphere (Iike in a chalk bag, in a rucksack in the corner of the garage, next to your sweaty climbing shoes). I guess you should just have a small quantity of chalk in your bag, and keep it in an airtight ziplock bag, and just top it up a bit at a time from chalk stored in a tupperware container or airtight bag, but I doubt anyone does that.

I've noticed the chalk from the open bag i have next to the bouldering wall in the garage can sometime have a slightly damp feel to it, compared to fresh stuff out the pot.

Some people talk about microwaving it to make it drier, but never tried this myself.

[remus]

Friction labs were making a load of false claims on their website among them claiming that their chalk was especially "pure". Someone used a "Scanning electron Microscope (SEM) with Energy Dispersive X ray Spectroscopy (EDX)" to show that this was all a load of bollocks and that Metoulius chalk was (also) 100% magnesium carbonate. Here is a post about it:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111741582/frictionlabs-chalk-lots-of-false-statements-in-their-website-i-would-not-trust-t

Personally I find the bollocksy, pseudo-science shit that is the friction labs sales pitch objectionable enough to outweigh any potential benefits. When they first launched I remember looking in to the claims on their website, and the only source they had was some postdoc who seemed to have run a chemical analysis for them and then be collared in to writing it up to look like a real paper (which didn't actually support any of their claims).

Fair enough if they want to market homeopathic chalk at 3x the price of normal chalk (10z friction labs vs 600g decathlon bucket), but lets not lie about it.

[MischaHY]

I hate it when companies spout bullshit, and so pretty much instantly relegated Friction Labs to this corner when they started pushing their 'special magic chalk' marketing wankery.

However.

I've recently been doing a lot of small edge training on the BM micros. I was using an old chalk bag I had stashed by the fingerboard, and at some point it was empty. Being the lazy bastard that I am, instead of refilling from the big 1kg wild country bag in the shed, I just grabbed Cora's chalk bag out of the box and started using that.

Previously I'd been trying very hard on the 8mm and couldn't touch the 6mm (I was trying optimistically each session). This session I chalked up, stepped underneath the 6mm, crimped desperately and didn't immediately slip off 

Think I managed about 3 seconds, and then later on about 7 seconds. Pretty crappy, but there you go. Turns out the chalk in the bag was some friction labs that she'd got from a trade show. Did it make the difference? Probably not.

I'm interested to know what they do it to make it feel so 'nice' on the skin though. Why does it sit in a thin coat so well compared to some other chalks? I wonder if it's milled differently or something.

[Plattsy]

I'd guess for the same reason it sits as a thin (hard to clean) coat on rock.

More finer particles in more smaller spaces.

[wasbeen]

My suspicion is that it is all in the grind. The solid beta block stuff once whizzed in the coffee grinder is like nothing else I have used - very soft and fluffy, with massive increase in volume (fill power). Compared to the unprocessed block it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.

[spidermonkey09]

My suspicion is that it is all in the grind. The solid beta block stuff once whizzed in the coffee grinder is like nothing else I have used - very soft and fluffy, with massive increase in volume (fill power). Compared to the unprocessed block it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.

I think my girlfriend would go mental if i used the coffee grinder for chalk. Unless you have an old one for this purpose/ a food processor/ smoothie maker or something?

[Will Hunt]

I do wonder what the naysayers are using it on, and whether they normally struggle with conditions or sweaty fingers. Do they also use anti-hydral which is also reducing the scope for further improvements in friction?

I consider myself a sceptic and was very sceptical at first. But I can physically feel the difference - in certain conditions dependent circumstances. You know when you climb up to some marginal crimps and they feel greasy? You can feel your fingers start to creep on the hold as you try to engage on it? That's where the chalk comes in. It doesn't improve things when conditions are mint, but for marginal conditions on conditions dependent holds, that's where there's an impact. I know that without a controlled study there's no way to disaggregate this from a placebo, but we're unlikely to see a study like that happen soon. The marketing is bullshit but if you don't follow Instagram knobheads (and I try not to) then you don't actually see that much of it.

[mrjonathanr]

it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.

Boom! what sort of cheese do you use?

[wasbeen]

My suspicion is that it is all in the grind. The solid beta block stuff once whizzed in the coffee grinder is like nothing else I have used - very soft and fluffy, with massive increase in volume (fill power). Compared to the unprocessed block it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.

I think my girlfriend would go mental if i used the coffee grinder for chalk. Unless you have an old one for this purpose/ a food processor/ smoothie maker or something?

I just use one of the cheap blade grinder/choppers which are about £15 quid. It got relegated for chalk use after we got a burr grinder. It is quiet convenient as the capacity is almost exactly perfect for a day’s climbing. It would only take a quick wipe with a cloth to use it for coffee again.

I did try adding cinnamon to the chalk to make it smell nicer - unsurprisingly it made it smell of cinnamon.

[AMorris]

Speaking of Beta chalk, I was over in V12 t'other day looking to restock, and was told that they no longer make it anymore. This was devastating news to me.

However, there was a suspiciously similar chalk block in their place called '8C+' (take that 8b+). It turns out this pretender is actually identical, and I get the impression is just a rebrand of Beta. It felt basically identical to me: a dense block that threatens to drive a solid shard of chalk into your hand when you break it up.

Does anyone have any solid info on this?

[Anti]

Speaking of Beta chalk, I was over in V12 t'other day looking to restock, and was told that they no longer make it anymore. This was devastating news to me.

However, there was a suspiciously similar chalk block in their place called '8C+' (take that 8b+). It turns out this pretender is actually identical, and I get the impression is just a rebrand of Beta. It felt basically identical to me: a dense block that threatens to drive a solid shard of chalk into your hand when you break it up.

Does anyone have any solid info on this?

So, this is exactly why I started the thread, from a visit to V12 on Saturday... The 8b+ chalk sucks if you like the Beta, nothing like it, very fine and powdery, almost slippy feeling. However I ordered some from the Gymnasium website posted earlier, so hopefully I don't have to wait too long!

My suspicion is that it is all in the grind. The solid beta block stuff once whizzed in the coffee grinder is like nothing else I have used - very soft and fluffy, with massive increase in volume (fill power). Compared to the unprocessed block it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.

I think my girlfriend would go mental if i used the coffee grinder for chalk. Unless you have an old one for this purpose/ a food processor/ smoothie maker or something?

I just use one of the cheap blade grinder/choppers which are about £15 quid. It got relegated for chalk use after we got a burr grinder. It is quiet convenient as the capacity is almost exactly perfect for a day’s climbing. It would only take a quick wipe with a cloth to use it for coffee again.

I did try adding cinnamon to the chalk to make it smell nicer - unsurprisingly it made it smell of cinnamon.

Potentially not as silly an idea as it sounds. Not the grinding, but the smelly additives. When I used to race bicycles the ritual of putting on embro pre warm up was a main part of the routine, the smell of clove oil and decongestants while sat in a nervy bunch of cyclists waiting to start the race really got me amped up and was part of my mental process. Even now, the smell of embro / clove oil / olbas oil stuff seems like it switched my brain into go mode. I've experimented with just rubbing in onto myself randoml before heading out climbing and it works, but smelly chalk might be a thing... Except ground cloves in my chalk sounds like it might just suffocate me.

[wasbeen]

it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.

Boom! what sort of cheese do you use?

Rock-fort

[AMorris]

Speaking of Beta chalk, I was over in V12 t'other day looking to restock, and was told that they no longer make it anymore. This was devastating news to me.

However, there was a suspiciously similar chalk block in their place called '8C+' (take that 8b+). It turns out this pretender is actually identical, and I get the impression is just a rebrand of Beta. It felt basically identical to me: a dense block that threatens to drive a solid shard of chalk into your hand when you break it up.

Does anyone have any solid info on this?

So, this is exactly why I started the thread, from a visit to V12 on Saturday... The 8b+ chalk sucks if you like the Beta, nothing like it. However I ordered some from the Gymnasium website posted earlier, so hopefully I don't have to wait too long!

  well that serves me right for not checking the thread starter! Apologies.

That's interesting, I didn't find that the 8C+ stuff (which is what I presume you meant, unless you downgraded yours) was any different really. You have given me adequate scope to start blaming inferior chalk for my shoddy performance though, many thanks!