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Och aye the Yes! Or Noooo.... (The Scottish Independence thread) (Read 106751 times)

petejh

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Incidentally, British is not a Nationality.
Neither is European.
Those are geographic tags.
Being part of the EU doesn't make you European, though living in the British isles does.


Eh? Are you now talking in metaphysics?

Next you'll be telling us humans aren't actually 'humans', it's just an huminoidally-attributed-bio-marker-tag. Plato's theory of forms - what is 'chair' etc...

petejh

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Google the latest polls on Brexit support yourself and while your at it look at:
A: how many people over 60 have died since the referendum.
B: how many people came of age since the referendum.
C: the demographic spread of voting during the referendum.

Then make a wild guess if anything has changed, or, more to the point; how much will change over the next couple of years.


Ha, brilliant! Make a statement based on a series assumptions that support your belief.
Show me solid evidence that supports your statement that 'It also seems highly likely that [the] majority has eroded hugely from that first referendum.'.

Also worth pointing out that your line of argument could be applied to every major decision/vote/referendum ever held. So by your logic we should be revisiting decisions of great constitutional importance every couple of years; or is it just the ones you personally don't like the result of..?

Oldmanmatt

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Will do, since it's a fact.
Go ahead.

You won't last long, they seem touchy on the subject.

I still contend it is not a Nationality ANY MORE THAN EUROPEAN IS NATIONALITY, since the UK of Great Britain is a Union of individual nations. I thought it obvious the distinction I was making, philosophically, from the defacto legal status.
Or are we saying they're not *really* individual nations?
Is it possible that Nations are, maybe, an outdated concept and that retreating into our little tribal compounds might just result in the big boys shitting all over us from a height?
How many "Nations" make up that which we (and they themselves) call China? Maybe they will disintegrate too!
Where might we go with this?

California Über alles!

Sorry Dave. Brexit sucks. The potential dissolution of the UK sucks.

Still awaiting that answer.

Anyone got anything better than "It might all be worse or at least not as good as it would be and there's always a chance it might be better (one day, maybe, when we're all dead) but at least it will only be a British decision (just for you Dave, though that might have to be amended to English at a later date)" as a reply?

And, please note, my posts are tongue-in-cheek. I genuinely enjoy a gentle argument. If you present me with the evidence, I'll flipflop faster than the Chancellor!
Though, in truth, I'm more than well aware of the sliding spectrum of "truth" and "right" and "better".

So.

For the sake of nothing more than making people think, by posting on an internet forum.

Picture me, in full "Joker" makeup, giggling maniacally and waving an oversized Colt Python lazily in the air.
I pause from the laughter.
Struggle for a breath and shout...


"How the fuck is this better?"



petejh

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Will do, since it's a fact.
Go ahead.

You won't last long, they seem touchy on the subject.

Have you lost the plot Matt? Irish is a nationality. UK & NI is a nationality. People born in NI have, by law, dual nationality. Are you suggesting this isn't the case?

(btw makes it highly unlikely that a majority of people in NI would vote fort Northern Ireland to leave the UK, as pragmatism would likely win over and they are the only UK citizens who retain both UK and EU citizenship should they want it).


Oldmanmatt

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Will do, since it's a fact.
Go ahead.

You won't last long, they seem touchy on the subject.

Have you lost the plot Matt? Irish is a nationality. UK & NI is a nationality. People born in NI have, by law, dual nationality. Are you suggesting this isn't the case?

(btw makes it highly unlikely that a majority of people in NI would vote fort Northern Ireland to leave the UK, as pragmatism would likely win over and they are the only UK citizens who retain both UK and EU citizenship should they want it).
Read it again.


Back on less esoteric ground...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/scottish-independence-voting-intention-no-57-yes-4/

dave

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Matt are you on crack? I'm only arsed to give a skim read to the paragraphs of stream-of-consciousness babble above but nationality by definition is a legal status. End of. If you didn't mean this and you actually meant "sense of national identity" then fair dos, but if you're not going to use the same terminology as everyone else then don't be surprised by the ensuing discussions.

dave

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And even if we're talking this mysterious "philosophical" nationality, British is still a valid national identity. I identify as British, not English especially.

Oldmanmatt

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Matt are you on crack? I'm only arsed to give a skim read to the paragraphs of stream-of-consciousness babble above but nationality by definition is a legal status. End of. If you didn't mean this and you actually meant "sense of national identity" then fair dos, but if you're not going to use the same terminology as everyone else then don't be surprised by the ensuing discussions.

You do get that this whole debate is predicated on the fluidity of Nationality? A large section of our islands population are saying they do not wish to be "British", they wish to be "Scottish", in fact already identify as such. We might be about to find out if a majority of those people wish for that to be a legal distinction.
(Irish, of course, refers to those residents of the Republic, or I would have said Northern Irish. I rather considered them (NI) to be part of the "us" in my "rambling", they may also chose a different future).

And my point is, you will still be European after article 50, just as the Scots will still be British regardless of any future legal changes. As are the Irish (of the south) regardless of how upset they may be at being lumped in with the English.
My passport, Dave, is in danger of becoming increasingly inaccurate. As a result of a, supposedly, non-binding referendum, I'm about to lose that "European" legal status and may very well lose the "British" part too. Of course, it might be that "British" is redefined as those citizens of England, Wales and Northern Island.

And Pete. Pragmatism will win out?
From the "I just feel it will be better" man?
I think we've shown that Nationalism is a potent little tipple, that is perfectly able to override pragmatism.

When you dismiss the risk of the breakup of the UK as anything other than both possible and every bit as likely as Brexit; I think you are missing the lessons of recent events.

Dave, babble? You're usually better than that.

petejh

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Oldmanmatt

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Google the latest polls on Brexit support yourself and while your at it look at:
A: how many people over 60 have died since the referendum.
B: how many people came of age since the referendum.
C: the demographic spread of voting during the referendum.

Then make a wild guess if anything has changed, or, more to the point; how much will change over the next couple of years.


Ha, brilliant! Make a statement based on a series assumptions that support your belief.
Show me solid evidence that supports your statement that 'It also seems highly likely that [the] majority has eroded hugely from that first referendum.'.

Also worth pointing out that your line of argument could be applied to every major decision/vote/referendum ever held. So by your logic we should be revisiting decisions of great constitutional importance every couple of years; or is it just the ones you personally don't like the result of..?

Umm...

Yes.

We do, normally, every five years or so. Both those things I like and dislike (I wasn't aware my opinion was a factor in that). And I actually said this line of reasoning works both ways. I'm not the one chanting "Will of the people!"
Not saying you are, but you might have noticed it's a common refrain.
So, yes, things need revisiting. Some quite often. Is that a problem?

If, we re-ran the Brexit ref (which was already a re-run) or the Scots re-run their recent Indy ref, are the results more, or less, valid than the previous?

You chose to take part in the Brexit ref, because you think such major constitutional matters need revisiting. Everything else is arguing about timing.

I would suggest, that letting the same people review their decisions within their lifetimes seems reasonable. I wasn't able to take part in the 1973 (was it?) referendum (I was busy filling a nappy), if we wait that long to review this latest decision, I'll most likely be dead.

Edit.

Also, I suggested you look at a few parameters and judge for yourself the validity of my suggestion on demographic change affecting the Brexit majority...

dave

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Dave, babble? You're usually better than that.

I thought it obvious the distinction I was making, philosophically, from the defacto use of babble.

Fultonius

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Quote from: Oldmanmatt
If, on the other hand, if the Scots (in this instance) wish to dissolve the Union expressly to avoid the Nationalistic crap of their Southern neighbours; all power to them.

If enough people in Scotland are more strongly wedded to the idea of ceding much of their countries power and decison-making authority to a centrally-governed European state than to the idea of ceding power to to another part of the UK government than yes, all power to them.

I'm not totally wedded to rejoining the EU. I think joining the EEA as soon as possible, followed by a period of consultation rejoining the EU could be a good approach.

Pete, I see you're still wedded to the the "bringing power back" from the EU idea. Can you not see the fundamental difference between a Scotland as part of the UK, and the UK as part of the EU?

One, a devolved government which has no control of fiscal policy, defence, foreign affairs and which looks at serious risk of losing powers post Brexit, rather than gaining any, controlled by a government which is on a path the majority of people in Scotland don't want to take.

The other, a large, sovereign nation which already had an amazing deal in Europe, who has a small percentage (11% is it?) of laws imposed on them by the EU - mainly to do with environment, workers rights, food safety...you know...stuff that make the world a better place. You still have yet to name any EU laws that are actually detrimental! Which laws and policy decisions have the EU made that you take issue with? I could name a thousand from Westminster!


Oldmanmatt

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Google the latest polls on Brexit support yourself and while your at it look at:
A: how many people over 60 have died since the referendum.
B: how many people came of age since the referendum.
C: the demographic spread of voting during the referendum.

Then make a wild guess if anything has changed, or, more to the point; how much will change over the next couple of years.


Ha, brilliant! Make a statement based on a series assumptions that support your belief.
Show me solid evidence that supports your statement that 'It also seems highly likely that [the] majority has eroded hugely from that first referendum.'.

Also worth pointing out that your line of argument could be applied to every major decision/vote/referendum ever held. So by your logic we should be revisiting decisions of great constitutional importance every couple of years; or is it just the ones you personally don't like the result of..?

I actually did the googling.



First hit was pure confirmation bias in action, though I thought the search parameters quite neutrally couched.

 http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-will-of-the-british-people-it-never-has-been/

I'm pretty sure I linked to it before, or someone else on here did etc etc.
I will try to read all the hits I can, because if the assertion I made is wrong, I have no trouble admitting it.

Edit:

Oh, this one's good, biased of course, but good:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

70% of young people, wow!

« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 07:13:44 pm by Oldmanmatt »

Oldmanmatt

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Oldmanmatt

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mrjonathanr

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'Not any worse off (than if we'd stayed), with more responsibility for decision-making laying with the government we elect' would be my pre-requirement.

I think that is not realistic.

Ironically it glosses the interdependencies of trade, and of autonomy in a globalised society, straight after berating OMM ....for reducing things to simplistic points on a forum.

edit: unnecessarily abrasive.



« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 07:31:47 pm by mrjonathanr »

jfdm

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Pete...  Which laws and policy decisions have the EU made that you take issue with? I could name a thousand from Westminster!
That old chestnut, I asked the same question to Pete at the time of Brexit results.
Not heard anything back.
I think it is because he can't answer.
Brexit means Brexit, they say, just a load of old  :shit:
I remember his musings about EU (Brussels?) being remote.
EU for me is less remote than Westminster, and I live in London.

As for Scottish independence
Listen to Mayhem here
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/16/may-sets-up-battle-with-sturgeon-as-she-rejects-referendum-demand
Basically how can the Scotland make an informed decision without knowing the full outcome of Brexit. What a fucking hypocrite. Brexit was such an informed decision, almost like a leap of faith, it was that informed.




« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 09:47:54 pm by jfdm »


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