[Will Hunt]

My eldest is 3 years and 4 months old. We're going on holiday for a week to the North-west Lake District. She's done some bouldering on short slabby grit at Shipley Glen but never been in a harness.

I'm thinking of getting her a harness and a pair of tiny rock shoes (if they do them that small) and taking her out for a little climb/abseil/swing-about-pretending-to-be-a-butterfly while we're on holiday. Does anybody know a location where there are some short, scrambly "rock climbs" that I can set up a top rope on to start her off? I'd probably solo up beside her while her mum belays.

In reality, anything that is an actual graded climb is probably going to be too hard. Some unclassified rock at, or on the fringe of, a "real" crag would probably fit the bill. I've been to this place before as it's a mile's walk from where we stay. I remember it having bolted anchors at the top, and it's short (though not tiny) and slabby so could be ideal, but I can't remember whether there's anything there that will be easy enough for her.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/church_crag_cumbria-16853


While we're at it, does anyone have any kids harness recommendations they'd like to make? The Edelrid Fraggle looks good but not sure whether to get the XS or XXS. I've heard the Decathlon one is good also. Decathlon rock shoes also I presume?

And finally, if anyone would like to recommend an easy-access bouldering spot with some easy boulders for her to scamper on then that could be another good option.

[SA Chris]

Decathlon rock shoes are good value, but for your purposes, trainers are probably fine. They grow out of them before they are anywhere near worn out.

We had an Edelrid Fraggle XXS which is a good harness, but has an odd extra elastic piece between the leg loops which seems to serve no purpose other than to make it fold up and wedge up their bum, I cut it off. We've had both kids in it since age 4 or so, my daughter in now 8 and it's just getting too small for her, but she's ready for a sit harness now.

[Will Hunt]

Decathlon rock shoes are good value, but for your purposes, trainers are probably fine. They grow out of them before they are anywhere near worn out.

We had an Edelrid Fraggle XXS which is a good harness, but has an odd extra elastic piece between the leg loops which seems to serve no purpose other than to make it fold up and wedge up their bum, I cut it off. We've had both kids in it since age 4 or so, my daughter in now 8 and it's just getting too small for her, but she's ready for a sit harness now.

Good beta, Chris. Thanks. She's obviously going to be leading 8b's by the time she's 8 so will need a sit harness then anyway. Good to know there'll be some mileage in the XXS.

[Nutty]

I've just bought a Petzl Ouistiti for our nearly four-year old as he's quite big for his age and I thought the Fraggle XXS might not last him long, though it sounds like it would've been fine. Have yet to wrestle him into it since it arrived.

[robertostallioni]

Hi Will. Took Leif for a day at this crag when he was 3 or 4. Its in the shot, just behind the telegraph pole. Its at the parking for Thrang Quarry at Chapel Stile. About 200m to the left of Thrang and a pleasant walk in. its about 80-85 degrees, 10m high and you can sit on top and waist belay em up, lower em down and just move a metre to the side and repeat. Leif did about 20 Tommy toprope first ascents and named em all 

https://goo.gl/maps/9eu731qpfj2BVnQV8

[Will Hunt]

I've been a fucking idiot and referred to the north west lakes. I meant north east! We stay near the north end of Thirlmere.

[tomtom]

I've been a fucking idiot and referred to the north west lakes. I meant north east! We stay near the north end of Thirlmere.

Central lakes then :p

You're right near Shepherds crag then IIRC? Which is fairly roadside...ish (memory etc..). edit. I was wrong

Bowderstone nearish...

If the lake is low *unlikely?* the Lake boulders will be exposed....

Go to Castlerigg stone circle near sunset. Its a cool place. It reaches out to your inner druid.

Keswick town centre was a fucking nightmare last week... #busy might be better now school hols over...

Carrock (I keep banging that drum :D) 20-25 min away? Roadside bouldering and if you stick to the low boulders (closer to road) fine for toddlers (mine was OK) lots of crannies to explore and mini boulders to ascend.

[Coops_13]

Although this is SE Lakes, Hutton Roof is a great venue that has a lot of v easy rock for short climbs that may fit the bill.

[HarryBD]

Arnison Crag above Patterdale or the Slabs above Sourmilk Gill in Borrowdale might be decent bets. Not sure how happy she'd be with the walk up to the latter though. They're mentioned in the Northern Lake District Scrambling Guide which you'd be welcome to borrow for a looksee

[Will Hunt]

Thanks Harry. The definitive even mentions an even easier thing just left of the lower slabs which is supposed to be good for very young nippers.

[Will Hunt]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Just in case anyone is googling this in the future or looking for advice on taking tiny people on the ropes for the first time I thought I'd do a write up - which will be of no interest or use to anyone not in this situation!

Before the holiday I took her to the Harrogate Wall and figured out that she's quite happy with the going up part of climbing but found the idea of falling off or the transition to letting go and sitting in the harness quite scary (which, now that I think about it, I can just about remember from my own first time in a harness aged eight). It's also not that easy in a chest harness to lean well back and walk backwards down the wall to lower off as the attachment point is higher on the body. So the main objective was to just get her to have fun and into a harness and up some rock and back down it again without it being a scary experience. The best thing for that is something super-slabby and really easy (i.e. not something that would be a graded climb).

I was going to head round to some of the spots in Borrowdale (the definitive mentions something to the side of Lower Seathwaite Slabs which is suitable for very young children, and there's a thing called Upper Shepherd's which looks suitable). But when we arrived at the house my friend told me there was something suitable near Church Crag which was just a mile's walk away. I don't think this is in the Eastern Crags guide but it's well used by outdoor groups - you can see the rock has been worn to a lighter colour at the bottom. It's two very slabby ribs of rock with glue-in P bolts at the top. Access to the crag is incredibly simple and the top is easily accessed by either walking around the side or just padding up the slab which might be classed as a Grade 1 scramble if it were an obligatory passage on a mountain route somewhere.

The slab is here:
54.592590, -3.078499  https://goo.gl/maps/DkE7qyVG9y6HfHYt7

If approaching from the east you can drive up to St John's church and park there. If coming from the west you could park at the bottom of the hill here and walk up in a few minutes:
54.591008, -3.082845 https://goo.gl/maps/uMjYid5JSANSiXZMA

I tied her on with an alpine butterfly and tied on maybe a foot and a half below her. It turned out to be pretty crucial to be able to climb up alongside her and also to lower off next to her while holding her hands. She did get the hang of sitting in the harness and even started to bounce down the slab when lowering (Hollywood action rappel style) but didn't have the co-ordination to keep her balance while navigating down an undulating 3D slab (as opposed to a nice flat indoor wall). She really didn't like me letting go of her hands, but oddly if she had a cuddly toy to hold onto she would happily let go and I could keep her in balance by holding a grab loop on the back of her harness.

[jshaw]

Really cool to see. Awesome that you worked out a scenario for her to work into it, gain confidence and really enjoy the experience.

Brings back fond memories of doing similar things with my parents when I was a similar age (well, maybe 5 or 6 for me, but you get the gist). Sounds like she'll remember it in a similar way.

[SA Chris]

We found that outdoors it's better to do routes you can walk off from if possible to avoid scary lowering off. We usually opt for me belaying at the top (esp if trad setup) and wife getting kids them ready at the bottom. a friendly and encouraging face at both ends of the climb.

[Will Hunt]

We found that outdoors it's better to do routes you can walk off from if possible to avoid scary lowering off. We usually opt for me belaying at the top (esp if trad setup) and wife getting kids them ready at the bottom. a friendly and encouraging face at both ends of the climb.

I'd considered that but I would like her to get used to lowering off as it will open up the possibility of taking her indoors, and it's a pretty essential thing to be able to do in general. Moreover if she had got halfway up and asked to come down she would have frozen up and got panicky when asked to lower off, and I don't think she could have been lowered off without uncomfortably bumping around and sliding off into the broken/grassy terrain right of the rib which would have really scared her. The alternative is for me to come and pluck her off the rock and carry her down which she wouldn't have given her a positive experience.

We've always gently pushed and encouraged her to develop her motor skills and coordination (she visits playparks at least 2-3 times a week while out and about with mum/me) but it's amazing how things which we take completely for granted have to be learned and developed and how much variation there is between children in how fearless/cautious they are.

Sounds like she'll remember it in a similar way.

She can't even remember what she had for dinner last night! But weirdly she vividly remembers helping me hunt and catch grasshoppers in the grass by the Wharfe when we went paddling there a few weeks ago.

[SA Chris]

She'll get used to lowering off in time, baby steps. Plus, as you say, it's a lot easier once in a sit harness.

how much variation there is between children in how fearless/cautious they are.

They are different people, who knew? My daughter is full of bravado and wanting to go first etc until she actually gets on the rock, then as soon as it gets tricky she will have a meltdown, then compose herself and get on with it, whereas my son goes quiet once he's tied in and just gets on with it and makes his way up most things I put him on, and won't acknowledge any communication or suggestions 'til he gets to the top (I think his Asperger's is part of this). He'll then sit and dissect the climb move by move.

[steveri]

Upper Seathwaite slabs are good, but a bit of a flog depending on appetite for ascent. It's a nice walk by the gill though. There is stuff lower but looks a bit worn? Thirlmere boulders I've seen a level of 11.7m ish suggested - current height a touch higher https://flood-warning-information.service.gov.uk/station/5210